Class 484 replacing class 483 on the island line: progress updates

[221101 Voyager]

complex software issues mean the fully refurbished trains are yet to be delivered.

How come pretty much every 'new' or brand new train has these software issues? Seems nobody can make reliable software to save their life!

 

[swt_passenger]

As I understand the main land Cl 230 sets have packing installed to raise the carboy as reported in this thread on the 10 Dec 20. This has been installed, I understand, to provide clearances with platforms. The IoW 484 vehicles don't have this additional packing, and thus the nominal height of the carbody above rail level of these sets is the same as they were when they operated on LU lines. Hence there may be a gauging issue with platforms, and before this issue can be resolved, is possibly a reason why the units are not been tested on the main land.

The packing on the 230s was supposedly explained as to make more room for the diesel generator sets, I’m not aware of it ever being explained as being for platform gauging. Unless that was an accidental bonus.

But in any case they’re now blaming “complex software issues”. I bet LU didn’t have them…

 

[HSTEd]

So... maybe opening for Christmas?

 

[spark001uk]

So... maybe opening for Christmas?

Which Christmas?

 

[swt_passenger]

Which Christmas?

Maybe it will be re-packaged as HS 4?

 

[py_megapixel]

Which Christmas?

Maybe they could do some kind of joint London railway opening extravaganza. Crossrail, the D-trains, the Deep Tube Upgrade stock and the SW 701s, all on the same day

 

[adc82140]

How come pretty much every 'new' or brand new train has these software issues? Seems nobody can make reliable software to save their life!

This isn't just restricted to the world of railways. My father in law has a background in systems analysis. He says that no software engineers actually know what they are doing. He quickly points out that this isn't necessarily a critisism, because by the nature of software development no one has any benchmarks to work from.

Everything has become reliant on centralised processing and software. I had to reboot the radio in my car last week. I'm fairly certain you'd have never had to do that in a 1991 Escort, because the radio wouldn't have been buried deep inside the same system that runs the air con, the navigation system and management of various peripherals.

 

[DarloRich]

Seems like the issues with the class 230's are contagious.........................

 

[221101 Voyager]

Seems like the issues with the class 230's are contagious.........................

Mind you, every single 'new' or brand new train has had some sort of issue, so it was inevitable the 484s would have that too.

 

[Goldfish62]

Seems like the issues with the class 230's are contagious.........................

Or SWR. None of the trains that they committed to introducing have actually entered service (unless you count the few weeks that the 442s ran).

 

[spark001uk]

It's just a shame these days that we're more surprised when a railway project does go to plan, than when it doesn't.

 

[43096]

Hmm...if they can't convert an EMU to, er, an EMU, then this doesn't bode well at all for Vivarail

You might say the same about Derby. An EMU builder that can’t get EMUs into service anywhere near to their contracted dates, and they have far more experience than Vivarail.

 

[Gloster]

Some, very vague and unsubstantiated, rumours from a non-railway source say they are hoping for late August, possibly a bit earlier. If they leave it that late they probably won’t need five sets as the traffic will have disappeared. Why pay rail fares to travel on a bus unless you want to get to the area around Sandown station, which is the only one any distance from a bus route?

 

[MotCO]

How much testing was done with 484001 on the mainland? Would they have transported it to the island with issues outstanding?

 

[Dougal2345]

Why pay rail fares to travel on a bus unless you want to get to the area around Sandown station, which is the only one any distance from a bus route?

I recall someone saying that on the Island the rail fares are generally a lot cheaper than the bus fares...

 

[Skymonster]

However, we have unforeseen difficulties with the software. Although in essence it is no different to the version we have used previously it needed some changes to enable the train to run on the 3rd rail.

Ahh... The wrong sort of electricity!

 

[swt_passenger]

How much testing was done with 484001 on the mainland? Would they have transported it to the island with issues outstanding?

There were reports in a rail mag quoting Adrian Shooter, about it being given a quick check on the Derby DC test track, (as I posted back in #1020 and then #1023 replied about seeing it on a road move), but no “mainland network operation” has ever been mentioned to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Skymonster]

There were reports in a rail mag quoting Adrian Shooter, about it being given a quick check on the Derby DC test track, (as I posted back in #1020 and then #1023 replied about seeing it on a road move), but no “mainland network operation” has ever been mentioned to the best of my knowledge.

002 was tested at Derby, not 001. 001 ran around a little at VivaRail's base (on fork lift batteries if I recall) and then moved to the Island. It has since run up and down the line a couple of times. The others are meant to be testing from Eastleigh.

 

[fgwrich]

You might say the same about Derby. An EMU builder that can’t get EMUs into service anywhere near to their contracted dates, and they have far more experience than Vivarail.

Indeed, at least Vivarail have been very apologetic over on twitter and almost immediately held their hands up. Derby could do well to take note...

 

[spark001uk]

Would this have anything to do with the fact the mainland is 750v and the island 630v? Seem to recall it ran OK on the island, for the short period it was able to?

 

[swt_passenger]

002 was tested at Derby, not 001. 001 ran around a little at VivaRail's base (on fork lift batteries if I recall) and then moved to the Island. It has since run up and down the line a couple of times. The others are meant to be testing from Eastleigh.

Oh right, but still presumably nothing on third rail at all before reaching the island?

 

[Chris125]

001 did sound odd every time she accelerated from a stand last year, like the power kept being cut - I assumed it was deliberate but maybe the software is struggling with the presumably spiky power supply from the 3rd rail? Desiros and Electrostars struggled with this initially IIRC, especially in ice and snow.

The packing on the 230s was supposedly explained as to make more room for the diesel generator sets, I’m not aware of it ever being explained as being for platform gauging. Unless that was an accidental bonus.

I can only recall reading the opposite tbh, that the 45mm packing was for gauging.

 

[Gloster]

I have looked back at earlier posts and elsewhere, and it does look as though 001 came straight from Long Marston to the island. I could not find anything definite.

 

[Skymonster]

Oh right, but still presumably nothing on third rail at all before reaching the island?

002 was trucked to Derby to run on the third rail at Bombardier - as far as I am aware 001 didn't run on third rail until it reached Ryde, while the testing from Eastleigh has also been third rail.

 

[Nogoohwell]

From the past 20 years in software development, this is never easy or can you give a specific date for a solution. Although the problem is known, its cause can take months to find. Its all about testing one scenario, then retesting same scenario with one change, reset, retest again.

Trouble becomes when you fix one issue and it then affects something else. On desktop PC's its easier to test scenarios and track where the fault occurs. On a train, you probably have to load the software, test it in action with one scenario and then reload and test again. Time consuming work.

As an indication of the scale of the task, modern trains have a lot of separate systems, doors, traction, signaling, passenger displays, GPS, SDO, wifi, lighting, heating, etc. Each one built by a different manufacture. So you are not just writing software for the trains operation, you have to write interface programmes for each individual system, then test them all together as anyone of them could cause a problem when working with another. To compound the issue. You need to test failures and workarounds as well.

This is just part of the work involved!

 

[MotCO]

From the past 20 years in software development, this is never easy or can you give a specific date for a solution. Although the problem is known, its cause can take months to find. Its all about testing one scenario, then retesting same scenario with one change, reset, retest again.

Trouble becomes when you fix one issue and it then affects something else. On desktop PC's its easier to test scenarios and track where the fault occurs. On a train, you probably have to load the software, test it in action with one scenario and then reload and test again. Time consuming work.

As an indication of the scale of the task, modern trains have a lot of separate systems, doors, traction, signaling, passenger displays, GPS, SDO, wifi, lighting, heating, etc. Each one built by a different manufacture. So you are not just writing software for the trains operation, you have to write interface programmes for each individual system, then test them all together as anyone of them could cause a problem when working with another. To compound the issue. You need to test failures and workarounds as well.

This is just part of the work involved!

I agree it is a task and a half. However, given that 230's are in service, would it be safe to assume the problems are traction related rather than doors, signals etc?

 

[tom1649]

Maybe they should have left the old traction equipment in and converted them from 4th rail to 3rd rail like they did with the 483s. Did the D Stock need much software to run reliably? No.

 

[D365]

Seems nobody can make reliable software to save their life!

You've got it the wrong way round - safety critical software has to be reliable, hence the delays.

 

[david1212]

How come pretty much every 'new' or brand new train has these software issues? Seems nobody can make reliable software to save their life!

Maybe they should have left the old traction equipment in and converted them from 4th rail to 3rd rail like they did with the 483s. Did the D Stock need much software to run reliably? No.

I totally puzzle over what all this software does and why needed. The new traction control equipment should just be a ' black box ' replacement of the old i.e. internally different but the same main power connection and interlocking. TPWS should again be ' off the shelf ' black boxes that disconnect power to the traction controller and apply brakes. To VivaRail just replacement/new wiring to connect these units together.

You've got it the wrong way round - safety critical software has to be reliable, hence the delays.

There have been electric trains for 100+ years long before software was heard of safety critical or otherwise.

What is needed? A switch on each door to confirm closed and a signal from TWPS box before allowing power from the third rail to the motor controllers.
A emergency stop / fault latching push button on each cab desk that removes power to motor controllers and applies brakes and requires a reset sequence.
Surely still better with relays than computers ?

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe they should have left the old traction equipment in and converted them from 4th rail to 3rd rail like they did with the 483s. Did the D Stock need much software to run reliably? No.

But the 483s suffered from reliability issues and spares shortages for years. Installing modern equipment that is still actively supported by manufacturers is going to make these trains far easier to keep going in the future.