Class 484 replacing class 483 on the island line: progress updates

[Chris125]

I totally puzzle over what all this software does and why needed. The new traction control equipment should just be a ' black box ' replacement of the old i.e. internally different but the same main power connection and interlocking. TPWS should again be ' off the shelf ' black boxes that disconnect power to the traction controller and apply brakes. To VivaRail just replacement/new wiring to connect these units together.

A modern AC traction package is going to involve software I'd have thought, and history suggests this can be an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A modern AC traction package is going to involve software I'd have thought, and history suggests this can be an issue.

I must admit I don't entirely get why these aren't just being bought and used TfL-spec like their previous trains have been, give or take fitting a new PIS so as to be PRM TSI compliant.

 

[Nym]

The old PIS is PRM-TSI compliant anyway. Just relies on an unreliable jumper.
Could have literally just sent over double enders as is and they'd have worked pretty much out of the box.
Would just need axle end return bushes on the motor cars, wire them in on the bogies, some tweaks to the Focon software in PIS and disable or rework the TFR.
(Would need to be 3 car for that to work) reconfiguring as 2 car is very possible but a bit harder compared with a fixed 4 car formation.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I must admit I don't entirely get why these aren't just being bought and used TfL-spec like their previous trains have been, give or take fitting a new PIS so as to be PRM TSI compliant.

Wasn’t there also a proposal to convert the Island Line to light rail / trams? Therefore the 484 as an upgraded heavy rail alternative was probably the lowest spec that could compete with that.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Would the D Stock keep running reliably for another ten or twenty years without major work? There is a logic to modernising the trains now before they start their new lives, instead of kicking it down the road in return for a quick entry into service.

 

[Nym]

Would the D Stock keep running reliably for another ten or twenty years without major work? There is a logic to modernising the trains now before they start their new lives, instead of kicking it down the road in return for a quick entry into service.

Piccadilly Line 1973TS has a lot of time to run with the same motors and similar traction.
Nothing to stop you big banging the change now with some spares (they were sold for a pittance to vivarail) and retraction them one at a time over the next few years.

 

[david1212]

A modern AC traction package is going to involve software I'd have thought, and history suggests this can be an issue.

True to the manufacturer but it ought to be a standard product that just needs specific settings for this application e.g. maximum input current from the third rail & maximum output current to the motors not be custom to 10 installations.

 

[bramling]

I must admit I don't entirely get why these aren't just being bought and used TfL-spec like their previous trains have been, give or take fitting a new PIS so as to be PRM TSI compliant.

I suspect using the old traction equipment would have been quite risky. There may be some similarity with the 73 stock, but the control system was specific to D stock and 1983 stocks, neither of which are still in service. The 38 stock was at least able to be supported by LU, especially during their earlier years, however look what happened as time went on - the fleet was only able to be kept going by robbing surplus units, and they were only able to do that because nine units were somewhat generously provided in the first place.

Keeping old vehicles going can be difficult and costly, as I was reminded today with another 4-figure servicing bill for my 21-year old car! I can see why they would want to be future proofing, if they’re going to go straight in with a load of obsolete 40-year-old gear then they might as well have just invested in keeping the 38 stock going.

 

[Chris125]

BBC South Today (12 mins) - note the toilet door 'issue'!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episo...L-pkeiaEG2KwWBYugVn48FD0VEKlqK4jUctbkICwPYiGM

True to the manufacturer but it ought to be a standard product that just needs specific settings for this application e.g. maximum input current from the third rail & maximum output current to the motors not be custom to 10 installations.

Might that be the problem though? A standard product too sensitive for our rather rough-and-ready 3rd rail network that needs months of fine tuning - others have been tripped up in the past IIRC.

 

[Goldfish62]

You might say the same about Derby. An EMU builder that can’t get EMUs into service anywhere near to their contracted dates, and they have far more experience than Vivarail.

And it seems can't even get the

BBC South Today (12 mins) - note the toilet door 'issue'!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episo...L-pkeiaEG2KwWBYugVn48FD0VEKlqK4jUctbkICwPYiGM



Might that be the problem though? A standard product too sensitive for our rather rough-and-ready 3rd rail network that needs months of fine tuning - others have been tripped up in the past IIRC.

Good comprehensive report.

Yes, the toilet door is interesting!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the toilet door is interesting!

Missed that in the report - but the toilets on the Marston Vale units are not exactly reliable.

 

[Fincra5]

Wasn’t there also a proposal to convert the Island Line to light rail / trams? Therefore the 484 as an upgraded heavy rail alternative was probably the lowest spec that could compete with that.

To be honest a TramTrain would have been the better option for the line but probably more expensive!

 

[Chris125]

Missed that in the report - but the toilets on the Marston Vale units are not exactly reliable.

It's the Up platform at St Johns, there's a minor height issue with the doors of the building...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10165435176865045&set=p.10165435176865045&type=3

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the Up platform at St Johns, there's a minor height issue with the doors of the building...

Oh, I see. Last time I saw that was a raised platform in Germany that caused some controversy by being built across the door from the booking office so they couldn't open it!

Here you go (in German):

Kurioser Umbau: Bahnsteig liegt zu hoch für Bahnhof - Fahrgäste klettern durch Fenster

Bad Bentheim. Es sieht aus wie ein Schildbürgerstreich: Am niedersächsischen Bahnhof Bad Bentheim lassen sich nach der Erhöhung des Bahnsteiges die Bahnhofstüren zu den Gleisen nicht mehr öffnen. Reisende können durch ein geöffnetes Fenster klettern oder um das Gebäude herumgehen, um zu ihren...

www.wz.de

 

[Richard Scott]

Oh, I see. Last time I saw that was a raised platform in Germany that caused some controversy by being built across the door from the booking office so they couldn't open it!

Here you go (in German):

Kurioser Umbau: Bahnsteig liegt zu hoch für Bahnhof - Fahrgäste klettern durch Fenster

Bad Bentheim. Es sieht aus wie ein Schildbürgerstreich: Am niedersächsischen Bahnhof Bad Bentheim lassen sich nach der Erhöhung des Bahnsteiges die Bahnhofstüren zu den Gleisen nicht mehr öffnen. Reisende können durch ein geöffnetes Fenster klettern oder um das Gebäude herumgehen, um zu ihren...

www.wz.de

And the Germans have such a good reputation for engineering!!!!! Not always deserved.

 

[Goldfish62]

And the Germans have such a good reputation for engineering!!!!! Not always deserved.

Berlin Brandenburg Airport....

 

[birchesgreen]

Software issues delay so many projects, even the most expensive warplane programme in the world (JSF) is delayed because so much code is still be written.

Wonder if a problem is so many software engineers opt for relatively easy stuff like web development instead, like... er... me.

 

[Chris125]

Wonder if a problem is so many software engineers opt for relatively easy stuff like web development instead, like... er... me.

If this is the AC traction package I'm not sure there's much alternative to real-world testing - historically the big manufacturers have spent considerable time and money testing, whether it's Siemens kitting out Wildenrath with UK-style 3rd rail (later used by Stadler for the 777s), Hitachi trundling around with a test unit before the 395s, while much use has been made of Old Dalby too. If Vivarail had delivered 001 to the Island last summer perhaps they'd have had time to sort this?

 

[43096]

If Vivarail had delivered 001 to the Island last summer perhaps they'd have had time to sort this?

Wouldn't that have needed SWR to place the contract with Vivarail sooner and DfT to have made a decision earlier? And it supposes that they could actually have run 001 on the island pre-trackwork anyway.

 

[Chris125]

Wouldn't that have needed SWR to place the contract with Vivarail sooner and DfT to have made a decision earlier? And it supposes that they could actually have run 001 on the island pre-trackwork anyway.

001 was meant to arrive in "early summer", with closures to lower the track at Rink Road/Pennyfeathers and the fitting of tripcocks to allow testing - sadly by the time it arrived there were only a few weeks left so very few runs were made before the upgrade began.

Considering the time other new fleets have needed, especially for 3rd rail testing, this made the current situation all but inevitable.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

And it supposes that they could actually have run 001 on the island pre-trackwork anyway.

They did.

 

[Energy]

True to the manufacturer but it ought to be a standard product that just needs specific settings for this application e.g. maximum input current from the third rail & maximum output current to the motors not be custom to 10 installations.

Thats a bit difficult, every train has different requirements so a one for all solution is very difficult and there are few installations but they are each, usually, big orders. Trains now also have a lot of sensors to report data about the train back to maintenance.

 

[A0wen]

I must admit I don't entirely get why these aren't just being bought and used TfL-spec like their previous trains have been, give or take fitting a new PIS so as to be PRM TSI compliant.

Because in 'as bought' spec they had a 40 year old traction package ? Which means spares etc will be limited now and even more so in 20 years, which is one of the problems with the 483s.

Your logic is basically akin to saying run 40 year old trains 'as is' - problem with that is you'll get 10 years at best out of them. Whereas with new traction packages you'll get 30 years out of them.

Also AC traction packages are more efficient than 40 year old DC ones are - which is a consideration when you're looking at ageing lineside DC equipment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your logic is basically akin to saying run 40 year old trains 'as is' - problem with that is you'll get 10 years at best out of them. Whereas with new traction packages you'll get 30 years out of them.

Remind me, how long did the previous stock run on the original traction motors? 83 years, wasn't it? Old DC kit is simple, robust and well-maintained basically goes on forever.

 

[Journeyman]

Remind me, how long did the previous stock run on the original traction motors? 83 years, wasn't it? Old DC kit is simple, robust and well-maintained basically goes on forever.

Yes, and for the last twenty or so years, that stock was only kept in service by progressively reducing the size of the fleet and stripping it for spares. You do realise what an incredible struggle it's been keeping the service running, don't you? Quite often in the last few years it didn't run at all.

 

[A0wen]

Remind me, how long did the previous stock run on the original traction motors? 83 years, wasn't it? Old DC kit is simple, robust and well-maintained basically goes on forever.

Depends whether you want to run a proper public transport service or a glorified heritage railway I guess.

Follow your argument to its logical conclusion and Southern Vectis should still be operating the island's bus services using Bristol Lodekkas and the like.

Then you'd be complaining about the use of 'museum pieces'.

Yes, and for the last twenty or so years, that stock was only kept in service by progressively reducing the size of the fleet and stripping it for spares. You do realise what an incredible struggle it's been keeping the service running, don't you? Quite often in the last few years it didn't run at all.

Exactly ! So the Island Line got about 10 years use out of them before reliability started to deteriorate as the units got older.

 

[Energy]

Yes, and for the last twenty or so years, that stock was only kept in service by progressively reducing the size of the fleet and stripping it for spares. You do realise what an incredible struggle it's been keeping the service running, don't you? Quite often in the last few years it didn't run at all.

About half of the fleet was used for spare parts and they still often struggled to run a service due to the old stock. There is only so long you can keep old equipment running.

 

[danielnez1]

About half of the fleet was used for spare parts and they still often struggled to run a service due to the old stock. There is only so long you can keep old equipment running.

I'm sure I read somewhere that they also got salvaged cab conponents from 1959/62 tube stock when they were being scrapped.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A modern AC traction package is going to involve software I'd have thought, and history suggests this can be an issue.

The issue here is the desire of engineers across the world to use computers to control everything because they can not because they need to and the stupidity of the people running these companies be it Boeing, Bombardier or VivaRail to be seduced by technology.

SWR kept in simple with the class 455 conversion just change out the traction package and minimise the interface with other systems.

Sadly i suspect VivaRail will get no further in the UK now.

 

[Gloster]

Sadly i suspect VivaRail will get no further in the UK now.

I am afraid that I agree. Even if it is shown to be someone else’s fault, the damage to VivaRail’s image is probably too great. And then they have the problem that if they can’t sell their products at home, potential buyers elsewhere are liable to ask why and end up going elsewhere.