Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[pompeyfan]

What's PTI?

Platform train interface, basically the check to make sure the dispatch corridor is clear and safe.

Word on the grapevine from ops standards and various drivers is that 701s will now be driver open guard close as drivers have refused to do the final PTI check. We shall see if that’s true eventually

As much as I hope that’s true, ASLEF accepted it as part of their multi year pay deal, as did RMT (wording along the lines of all trains will be full DCO unless the rolling stock is not suitable for amendments).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2023 ==

Didn’t Heathrow Express initially require a second safety critical staff member for evacuation purposes, in the tunnel section at least?

Possibly, I wasn’t aware of that role/requirement.

 

[TEW]

Word on the grapevine from ops standards and various drivers is that 701s will now be driver open guard close as drivers have refused to do the final PTI check. We shall see if that’s true eventually

I don't think any drivers seem to have accepted the reality of what they agreed in their pay deal. Most seem to have been convinced they won't be closing the doors since the day it was signed, I am not so sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2023 ==

If it’s true and guards on 701s have no dispatch competency at all, this will be the first “classic lines” safety critical but without door competency role. There is no model currently available to base what the training package will need to be.

They’ll still need PTS, Short Circuit Bar, GSMR and emergency protection training as well as some form of look and learn. Also I’m not sure any thought has been given to how guards will work the trains on crush loaded sporting events. No middle cab so loiter around the accessible vestibule and hope you don’t get covered in beer I guess!

If the train is crush loaded the guard will be able to work from the back cab. Not ideal if they then need to provide assistance. If they did have to operate the doors on a crush loaded train that would be very impractical as that can only been done from within the passenger saloon.

 

[dctraindriver]

I don't think any drivers seem to have accepted the reality of what they agreed in their pay deal. Most seem to have been convinced they won't be closing the doors since the day it was signed, I am not so sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2023 ==


If the train is crush loaded the guard will be able to work from the back cab. Not ideal if they then need to provide assistance. If they did have to operate the doors on a crush loaded train that would be very impractical as that can only been done from within the passenger saloon.

Trust me, many did and many thought long and hard about it.

 

[Mainsideman]

If it’s true and guards on 701s have no dispatch competency at all, this will be the first “classic lines” safety critical but without door competency role. There is no model currently available to base what the training package will need to be.

They’ll still need PTS, Short Circuit Bar, GSMR and emergency protection training as well as some form of look and learn. Also I’m not sure any thought has been given to how guards will work the trains on crush loaded sporting events. No middle cab so loiter around the accessible vestibule and hope you don’t get covered in beer I guess!

Base yourself in the back cab i guess? Not really anything else you can do

 

[Elorith]

Surely there’s not enough commercial guards and they’ll have to grow that establishment? It also doesn’t sound particularly resilient during disruption, we’ll have to wait and see as the plan has probably changed several times since! Apparently the COO said on a recent colleague call that depot driver training has finally begun for 701s, although no news on mainline drivers.

I have heard that training was supposed to be commencing at Feltham for DIs a couple of weeks back but had to be abandoned (for the third time now!) because there were still far too many issues with the units for it to be viable, but nothing re: depot drivers

 

[Goldfish62]

Base yourself in the back cab i guess? Not really anything else you can do

That's what happens with every packed train that I've ever been on that doesn't have a cab anywhere else.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Word on the grapevine from ops standards and various drivers is that 701s will now be driver open guard close as drivers have refused to do the final PTI check. We shall see if that’s true eventually

So basically where Southern got to with 377's over a decade ago before pushing on for full DOO. Oh well at least it should save the 10 seconds many guards take to confirm the train is in the same position it has always stopped at for the last thirty years before they give door release.

 

[swr444]

So basically where Southern got to with 377's over a decade ago before pushing on for full DOO. Oh well at least it should save the 10 seconds many guards take to confirm the train is in the same position it has always stopped at for the last thirty years before they give door release.

Hardly true if there’s low adhesion / driver has mistakenly stopped short over overshot the platform.

 

[cvinall]

Hardly true if there’s low adhesion / driver has mistakenly stopped short over overshot the platform.

Isn't the driver in a better position to know if that has happened, than the guard? (Or, at least, they'll be the first to know). Indeed, maybe the guard having to confirm the train's position before releasing the doors is precisely because they can't be certain, with only a side view onto the platform. As a passenger (ie non-expert), I don't understand the value of having guards operate the doors, anyway, apart from to give them something to do. Their safety role if there's a mishap is clearly valuable and important, but normal operation always seems slicker when the driver does it all.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Isn't the driver in a better position to know if that has happened, than the guard? (Or, at least, they'll be the first to know). Indeed, maybe the guard having to confirm the train's position before releasing the doors is precisely because they can't be certain, with only a side view onto the platform. As a passenger (ie non-expert), I don't understand the value of having guards operate the doors, anyway, apart from to give them something to do. Their safety role if there's a mishap is clearly valuable and important, but normal operation always seems slicker when the driver does it all.

Indeed it was more transformative than full DOO on Southern and passengers like the fact they can get off after the train has stopped not 10s later.

 

[pompeyfan]

Isn't the driver in a better position to know if that has happened, than the guard? (Or, at least, they'll be the first to know). Indeed, maybe the guard having to confirm the train's position before releasing the doors is precisely because they can't be certain, with only a side view onto the platform. As a passenger (ie non-expert), I don't understand the value of having guards operate the doors, anyway, apart from to give them something to do. Their safety role if there's a mishap is clearly valuable and important, but normal operation always seems slicker when the driver does it all.

Drivers can stop short without realising, especially if they’ve been working an 8 car train all day and then the last leg is 10/12 car. There’s also a much higher risk of wrong side door releases with driver released trains. There was a post recently of a GWR turbo with the passenger doors open off the platform as the driver had stopped short without realising and released the doors. Better technology could make driver release significantly safer by only releasing doors that are accommodated or platformed, and such tech does exist but isn’t as widespread as it should be.

Guard close / driver close is a whole different debate.

 

[swr444]

Isn't the driver in a better position to know if that has happened, than the guard? (Or, at least, they'll be the first to know). Indeed, maybe the guard having to confirm the train's position before releasing the doors is precisely because they can't be certain, with only a side view onto the platform. As a passenger (ie non-expert), I don't understand the value of having guards operate the doors, anyway, apart from to give them something to do. Their safety role if there's a mishap is clearly valuable and important, but normal operation always seems slicker when the driver does it all.

I agree driver open / guard close is better. but you said 'Oh well at least it should save the 10 seconds many guards take to confirm the train is in the same position it has always stopped at for the last thirty years before they give door release.' That's what I'm referring to. I have had drivers stop way off the stop car marker quite a few times, so you have to check that they haven't made a mistake and then operate a full door release and the risk of having someone fall out of the train into the cess.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Better technology could make driver release significantly safer by only releasing doors that are accommodated or platformed, and such tech does exist but isn’t as widespread as it should be.

Indeed I believe Southern had beacons at certain stations although I believe GPS is now relied upon. There are also simpler solutions like ruddy big signs to remind drivers which side to open doors

 

[pompeyfan]

Indeed I believe Southern had beacons at certain stations although I believe GPS is now relied upon. There are also simpler solutions like ruddy big signs to remind drivers which side to open doors

There are several signs, formation cards, schedule cards marked up, and yet mistakes still happen. The SWR 458 fleet will only release accommodated coaches in the event of an attempted stop short door release.

 

[InOban]

I thought that drivers were paid more than 'other ranks' because they had the responsibility of always doing things correctly. If they've lost focus and forgotten the length of their train, where they need to stop and don't notice which side has the platform, then they should have a meeting without tea and biscuits.

 

[swr444]

I thought that drivers were paid more than 'other ranks' because they had the responsibility of always doing things correctly. If they've lost focus and forgotten the length of their train, where they need to stop and don't notice which side has the platform, then they should have a meeting without tea and biscuits.

You do realise they’re also just humans and we all make mistakes day to day in any work sector. As mentioned above, if you’ve been working an 8 car all day and suddenly you get a 12 car, sometimes this can cause an unconscious confusion.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I thought that drivers were paid more than 'other ranks' because they had the responsibility of always doing things correctly. If they've lost focus and forgotten the length of their train, where they need to stop and don't notice which side has the platform, then they should have a meeting without tea and biscuits.

Are you really that uninformed that you think incidents like this don’t have consequences for the Driver concerned?

 

[Bigfoot]

Are you really that uninformed that you think incidents like this don’t have consequences for the Driver concerned?

Probably also assumes it's press a button and snooze between stations.

 

[InOban]

Probably also assumes it's press a button and snooze between stations.

I most certainly do not.

One of the principles of safety systems AIUI is that you don't share responsibility, since you can end up assuming that anything you miss will be picked up by someone else. And the other person assumes that it's already been checked... That's why airline pilots have such a detailed checklist. No matter what they've been told by ground staff, it's their responsibility.

Driver's checklist should surely include noting the length of the train. And checking the side with the platform They must not leave it to anyone else

 

[pompeyfan]

I most certainly do not.

One of the principles of safety systems AIUI is that you don't share responsibility, since you can end up assuming that anything you miss will be picked up by someone else. And the other person assumes that it's already been checked... That's why airline pilots have such a detailed checklist. No matter what they've been told by ground staff, it's their responsibility.

Driver's checklist should surely include noting the length of the train. And checking the side with the platform They must not leave it to anyone else

Where driver release is part of the TOC operation drivers will regularly be assessed to see there is a pause between wheel stop and door release, in an attempt to mitigate against such events. If the driver is involved in any such incident the first thing they’ll get asked is whether their schedule card is mark accordingly and if they had their formation card on the dash. Even still, occasionally errors are made.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Driver's checklist should surely include noting the length of the train. And checking the side with the platform They must not leave it to anyone else

Yes, it does, and no, they don’t leave it to anyone else. And as you’ve used aviation as a comparison, like Pilots, sometimes Train Drivers make errors (shock horror).
And, like Pilots, Train Drivers are held accountable for those errors.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a traction and rolling stock discussion to discuss class 701 updates please.

New threads can be created to discuss any other topic (if there isn't one already).

 

[dingdinger]

I agree driver open / guard close is better. but you said 'Oh well at least it should save the 10 seconds many guards take to confirm the train is in the same position it has always stopped at for the last thirty years before they give door release.' That's what I'm referring to. I have had drivers stop way off the stop car marker quite a few times, so you have to check that they haven't made a mistake and then operate a full door release and the risk of having someone fall out of the train into the cess.

10 seconds for a door release for a new guard possibly, otherwise from my experience it can be very quick if the guard is confident with their accommodation. I do think DO GC is sensible. From my experience of travelling on both the driver can take a little longer to close the doors. The only time saving really is the final local door. As others have mentioned doesn't seem practical for guards to be dispatching 701s during a busy peak in the saloon-particularly if they are swapping sides and the panels are not directly opposite like 707? And the view from the back cab will be more limited.

 

[3973EXL]

47727 701027

Realtime Trains | 5Q40 1050 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 03/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q40 1050 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 03/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47727 701018

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0710 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 04/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0710 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 04/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1009 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 04/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1009 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 04/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Caped

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0710 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 05/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0710 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 05/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1009 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 05/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1009 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 05/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Elorith]

So basically where Southern got to with 377's over a decade ago before pushing on for full DOO. Oh well at least it should save the 10 seconds many guards take to confirm the train is in the same position it has always stopped at for the last thirty years before they give door release.

Blame the change in policy by operations. In the past, it was perfectly acceptable for a guard to release the doors without stepping down so long as they were completely confident it was correctly platformed using their route knowledge. Now checking both ends of the train first is mandatory.

Combine that with a busy platform with everyone standing right next to the train in such a hurry to on where it's nearly impossible to see the length of the train (or sometimes people being so impatient and pressing the buttons to get on before the train has even stopped!), you can imagine why the process is sometimes so drawn out...they're merely doing their job properly!

 

[Stew27005]

701011 on 5Q51 today. 47727 and 701018 on 5Q64. I plan to publish updated status list tomorrow.

 

[Towers]

Regarding drivers closing the doors, whilst it may be a contractural obligation sold off a while back the obvious exception would of course be if there was a safety issue which meant that the union was not satisfied with the process - this remains the case on at least one of the IET fleets, whereby the camera images are not deemed acceptable. There could be a similar issue of some sort here?

 

[Goldfish62]

701011 on 5Q51 today. 47727 and 701018 on 5Q64. I plan to publish updated status list tomorrow.

Thanks.

 

[Juniper Driver]

701011 on 5Q51 today. 47727 and 701018 on 5Q64. I plan to publish updated status list tomorrow.

Saw 47727 at Reading (after 12pm) with the 701 going westwards.Where was it going?

 

[444045]

Saw 47727 at Reading (after 12pm) with the 701 going westwards.Where was it going?

It was taking U.701018 to Long Marston for storage!!

Another 701 going to Long Marston tomorrow as well.