Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[DMckduck]

So SWR only now doing what Southern did almost a quarter of a century ago when it first introduced its Electrostars!

But as you say, if it means quicker introduction that's a good thing, plus it gives metro guards something to do.

And maybe also the DFT saying we are paying these people, may aswell give them something to do.

Tories tested the water last year with the ticket office mess, and that was a very hot potato that proved destaffing the railway wasn't popular in the slightest.

Finally... the only thing holding the 701 rollout now is fit for passenger usage units, although we did see 017 today which could be seen as a positive?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2024 ==

There should be a re-negotiation of drivers' pay, then, as they are not doing the full role they are paid to do.

SWR drivers and ASLEF reps have had a heavy rub of the green that's for sure!

Maybe lessons can be learned for potential negotiations around method operation in the future elsewhere.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

But as you say, if it means quicker introduction that's a good thing, plus it gives metro guards something to do.

No more hiding in the middle cab, because there isn't one of most of the units
(apparently this is why some guards dislike 701s so much..)

 

[boiledbeans2]

SWR are struggling to retain new guards due to the new pay deal.

Time for another push of DOO?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

I see May is the date SWR will move to public ownership, which should not delay the introduction of more 701s. I also presume the livery and SWR name will be the same on the trains for a good while, till GBR gets setup?.

When SWR moves to public ownership, some of the trains will still be in SWT livery. SWR has already repainted one of them into BR blue! Great foresight!

 

[Elorith]

Rumbles are that driver training will be sped up because the course will basically be halved in length. Driver open, guard close will be the norm for all 701 at all stations.

Not a surprise at all, but if only someone had come to that conclusion much earlier nearly the whole fleet might be in service by now...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

No more hiding in the middle cab, because there isn't one of most of the units
(apparently this is why some guards dislike 701s so much..)

What about the rear one?

 

[pompeyfan]

I like how everyone is taking this one mess room rumour as gospel. That rumour has been floating around for years and resurfaces every few months.

I’m not saying it’s not true, just that it’s a frequent rumour that had no truth in it in the past.

 

[Val3ntine]

There should be a re-negotiation of drivers' pay, then, as they are not doing the full role they are paid to do.

Their contract has been changed regardless anyway, should the company want to convert the class 450/444 to driver open and close at any point then they can without negotiation. Same goes for any other stock.

 

[Invincible]

When SWR moves to public ownership, some of the trains will still be in SWT livery. SWR has already repainted one of them into BR blue! Great foresight!

Just 455868 is Blue, no 701s will be blue (so far), but might get GBR stickers over the SWR name and logo.

Currently all 455s will be scrapped when replaced by 701s.
We could speculate (if not already in a different thread)if a preservation group will be set up to somehow save 455868?.

 

[nctd2306]

You would also have thought they could have named one of the regulars instead of a unit only seen in service once.

031 in service on 2J92 this morning according to RTT
Maybe they heard us after all

 

[DMckduck]

Their contract has been changed regardless anyway, should the company want to convert the class 450/444 to driver open and close at any point then they can without negotiation. Same goes for any other stock.

That would require major investment for driver close, the desiro cab is too small isn't it to have monitors installed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

I like how everyone is taking this one mess room rumour as gospel. That rumour has been floating around for years and resurfaces every few months.

I’m not saying it’s not true, just that it’s a frequent rumour that had no truth in it in the past.

I suppose this one does hold more weight though, driver training will have to pause if they can't get enough DCO stations ticked off to sign them off.

 

[swr444]

That would require major investment for driver close, the desiro cab is too small isn't it to have monitors installed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

you don't need monitors to open the doors, just need to make sure you've stopped at the correct car mark.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

I like how everyone is taking this one mess room rumour as gospel. That rumour has been floating around for years and resurfaces every few months.

I’m not saying it’s not true, just that it’s a frequent rumour that had no truth in it in the past.

hardly mess room rumours this time around. I've now heard it from several sources higher up in the RMT and SWR.

 

[DMckduck]

you don't need monitors to open the doors, just need to make sure you've stopped at the correct car mark.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==


hardly mess room rumours this time around. I've now heard it from several sources higher up in the RMT and SWR.

No you don't but you need them for driver close, which was my point?

The open buttons just need energising.

 

[SWT_USER]

No you don't but you need them for driver close, which was my point?

The open buttons just need energising.

Seems like a no brainer then - would save time at each station.

 

[Goldfish62]

you don't need monitors to open the doors, just need to make sure you've stopped at the correct car mark.

As drivers at Avanti West Coast and Cross Country will vouch having worked that method for the past couple of decades.

 

[swr444]

No you don't but you need them for driver close, which was my point?

The open buttons just need energising.

Apologies I misread, as part of the new contract it was said that desiros would go over to DOGC eventually, so assumed that was what was being mentioned.

 

[43066]

So finally after all these years of disputes, the 78 days of strike action from the RMT, etc etc, and then finally getting all parties to sign off on it earlier this year, they've decided to drop DCO efforts.
Mixed feelings really, as a speed up in driver training will probably mean more diagrams quicker, or at least more reliable diagrams.

Sounds like the sensible option, and this is the outcome predicted upthread months and years ago. As you say, a pity it has taken so long.

There should be a re-negotiation of drivers' pay, then, as they are not doing the full role they are paid to do.

They’re being paid more because ASLEF agreed to vary their contracts to include DOO working. The fact the TOC has failed to implement it doesn’t change that.

 

[Goldfish62]

They’re being paid more because ASLEF agreed to vary their contracts to include DOO working. The fact the TOC has failed to implement it doesn’t change that.

And that does indicate a more pragmatic approach from the DfT now. I can't see it would have happened under the previous government.

 

[43066]

And that does indicate a more pragmatic approach from the DfT now. I can't see it would have happened under the previous government.

Indeed. No doubt in part motivated by the desire to generate visible improvements during the forthcoming nationalisation!

It is ridiculous that the (clearly failing and ideologically driven) previous approach wasn’t abandoned at a much earlier stage. That would have seen these trains enter service long ago, which would have been a better result for the passenger and taxpayer. Clearly they are not the priority!

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed. No doubt in part motivated by the desire to generate visible improvements during the forthcoming nationalisation!

It is ridiculous that the (clearly failing and ideologically driven) previous approach wasn’t abandoned at a much earlier stage. That would have seen these trains enter service long ago, which would have been a better result for the passenger and taxpayer. Clearly they are not the priority!

Completely agree.

It's one reason why I'm pleased that SWR is the first TOC to come under public ownership under this government. The government going to want to go all out to demonstrate that passengers have got demonstrable improvements as a result (even though we all know mere change of ownership in itself is not the driver of improvements in this case).

 

[OneTrackMinded]

And that does indicate a more pragmatic approach from the DfT now. I can't see it would have happened under the previous government.

That's also my theory, that the DfT personally stepped in and said that the predicted length of training all drivers along with the problems with DCO implementation meant that the logical decision would be to drop it

 

[DMckduck]

That's also my theory, that the DfT personally stepped in and said that the predicted length of training all drivers along with the problems with DCO implementation meant that the logical decision would be to drop it

I also think there may have been station issues that cost too much money to fix, i know signal sighting was an issue at some stations.

Maybe network rail turned round and said no we are not moving signals, considering the Windsor lines have recently been worked on.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I also think there may have been station issues that cost too much money to fix, i know signal sighting was an issue at some stations.

Maybe network rail turned round and said no we are not moving signals, considering the Windsor lines have recently been worked on.

I imagine it was a combination of all the factors we've mentioned and probably more.

 

[swtrains]

Today's testing - looks like it didn't run:

5T91 - Clapham Yard - Waterloo - normal.
5T92 - Waterloo - Waterloo - goes to Effingham Junction via Cobham then reverses and heads back via Cobham.
5T93 - Waterloo - Waterloo - goes to Effingham Junction via Cobham then reverses and heads back via Cobham.
5T94 - Waterloo - Clapham Yard - normal.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q03006/2024-12-05/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q03005/2024-12-05/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q03004/2024-12-05/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q03003/2024-12-05/detailed

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think this is the first day that we have had six different units out, albeit not all at the same time
701031 on the morning Surbiton run
701039 on the morning Shepperton diagram
701043 on the morning Windsor and evening Shepperton diagrams
701036 on the evening Windsor diagram
701017 and 701037 on the two Windsor all-day diagrams

That's 8% of the entire fleet!

 

[swtrains]

I think this is the first day that we have had six different units out, albeit not all at the same time
701031 on the morning Surbiton run
701039 on the morning Shepperton diagram
701043 on the morning Windsor and evening Shepperton diagrams
701036 on the evening Windsor diagram
701017 and 701037 on the two Windsor all-day diagrams

That's 8% of the entire fleet!

6.6% is pathetic.

 

[norbitonflyer]

6.6% is pathetic.

Or indeed 6.6% if you go by units rather than carriages / 10-car trains - 6/90 or 6/75

 

[800001]

As drivers at Avanti West Coast and Cross Country will vouch having worked that method for the past couple of decades.

and LNER since Azuma introduction .

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah well. Its not really that bad.

Perhaps next time the services out of Waterloo get new stock they can try for a method of operation that most other operators have managed to implement how long ago ?.

 

[Kite159]

And driver open/guard close is probably the best way when it comes to doing the doors. Would mean the guard can do more customer facing duties (if they wanted to).

Especially if the driver stops in the wrong place and opens all the doors it will be them having the chat with no biscuits rather than the guard when they fail to spot that the driver of a 10 coach set has pulled up at the 8 coach mark and releases the doors without seeing the rear coach is off the platform.

 

[Phillipimo]

And driver open/guard close is probably the best way when it comes to doing the doors. Would mean the guard can do more customer facing duties (if they wanted to).

Especially if the driver stops in the wrong place and opens all the doors it will be them having the chat with no biscuits rather than the guard when they fail to spot that the driver of a 10 coach set has pulled up at the 8 coach mark and releases the doors without seeing the rear coach is off the platform.

Luckily when they extended platforms to 10 car lengths about 10 years ago, they stuck the 8 and 10 car stop boards on the same post, so little chance of that happening.

 

[dingdinger]

Luckily when they extended platforms to 10 car lengths about 10 years ago, they stuck the 8 and 10 car stop boards on the same post, so little chance of that happening.

Yes some station platforms have 8-10 stop markers but some station platforms have different markers for 8 and 10 coach formations.