Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Peter Sarf]

One does wonder at what point the damage to all those electronics, including wiring, as well as the body work of the train itself, does it become financially viable to repair the train, or even possible at all.
A few months ago a 700 went into long term storage due to similar issues, where it was deemed impossible to fix.

Indeed. I suspect this is a much worse issue with these more modern trains than it was with Mk1 and Mk3 EMUs.

 

[Fincra5]

One does wonder at what point the damage to all those electronics, including wiring, as well as the body work of the train itself, does it become financially viable to repair the train, or even possible at all.
A few months ago a 700 went into long term storage due to similar issues, where it was deemed impossible to fix.

The 700 went into Long Term "Storage" as it had a motor flashover. Wasn't repairable at Three Bridges, so a solution had to be planned, and ended up at Eastligh.

Not quite the same....

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think you failed to realise the sarcasm in MontyP's post.

Erm yes. Apologies. My automatic sarcasm detector was temporarily isolated !!

 

[D365]

One does wonder at what point the damage to all those electronics, including wiring, as well as the body work of the train itself, does it become financially viable to repair the train, or even possible at all.

Units in storage are audited typically on a monthly basis. And, in theory, shunted by a fraction of a turn.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Units in storage are audited typically on a monthly basis. And, in theory, shunted by a fraction of a turn.

My feeling is the worry of damp creeping into everywhere. Structure and wiring.

 

[Siemens Staines]

But then what about all the space freed up by getting rid of 442s and 707s ?.

I agree with your general point, but specifically on the 442s, they were initially going to be replaced by 458/4. Under the original SWR traction plan that included the 442s, there would have been no 458s of any variation with SWR by now, so all of those vehicles have to be accommodated somewhere.

 

[Bigfoot]

Never fear; things have been agreed upon with management and unions.

Training will restart after Easter, with driver open guard close being the method of operation going forward.

The desire to run driver open driver close is still there; however, infrastructure still does not meet the requirements currently. That may be reviewed in time.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Never fear; things have been agreed upon with management and unions.

Training will restart after Easter, with driver open guard close being the method of operation going forward.

The desire to run driver open driver close is still there; however, infrastructure still does not meet the requirements currently. That may be reviewed in time.

That’s great news. I assume this will be the new shorter training course?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Never fear; things have been agreed upon with management and unions.

Training will restart after Easter, with driver open guard close being the method of operation going forward.

The desire to run driver open driver close is still there; however, infrastructure still does not meet the requirements currently. That may be reviewed in time.

That is positive. Lets hope for a steady improvements soon after to stations to make them DOOable !.
In the meantime it will be the race to get more 701s ready I suspect (as in finding out what state they are in) vs staff passing out on the 701s.

 

[markle]

Never fear; things have been agreed upon with management and unions.

Training will restart after Easter, with driver open guard close being the method of operation going forward.

The desire to run driver open driver close is still there; however, infrastructure still does not meet the requirements currently. That may be reviewed in time.

Just in time to be heralded as a benefit of nationalisation.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Indeed, lots of Drivers, eager to train on 701s of recent which is good.

 

[03_179]

I've been really out of touch with the cl.701s for a while.

What are the Regular diagrams for these please?

Thanks in advance

 

[Goldfish62]

Just in time to be heralded as a benefit of nationalisation.

The change of ownership may have focused minds at the top of SWR especially if they want to stay in their jobs, so an indirect benefit.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Indeed, lots of Drivers, eager to train on 701s of recent which is good.

I was worried about them before, but I've been on them when road learning again after coming back from illness and I quite like them.
Not worried about learning them now.
They did train the D.I.s at my depot only so far it seems.

 

[wickham]

So are you saying that SWR would hit a log jam while trying to get new units into service while needing the space for the units they were replacing ?.
Surely that should have been predictable.
But then what about all the space freed up by getting rid of 442s and 707s ?.

I agree there is unlikely to have been a single problem.
I dread to think how many hurdles are left to overcome and meanwhile the "new" trains sit gathering dust, rust and mould in sidings some near the sea (Marchwood) and others inland (Long Marston).
Enough hurdles have been seen and gone over.

It is times like this when I used to step pack from all the plausible excuses and have to accept there is a real big problem and its not getting solved.

Regarding the question of space, I know it is a long way from where they are wanted, but Bournemouth Depot always used to have spare space but no 701s have been there as far as I am aware. I know Bournemouth is overhauling 455s so they are kept busy, but it would seem to me, given space and staff avalibillity that this would be a good place to store and prepare units for service out of storage elsewhere.

 

[Siemens Staines]

What are the Regular diagrams for these please?

I believe that on weekdays they are

All Day
2H08 0543 Teddington to Waterloo
2H07 0642 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H16 0741 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H15 0842 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H24 0941 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H23 1042 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H32 1141 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H31 1242 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H40 1341 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H39 1442 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H48 1541 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H47 1642 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H56 1741 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H55 1842 Waterloo to Shepperton
5H64 1950 Shepperton to Waterloo
2U69 2133 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U76 2253 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2O77 0001 Waterloo to Strawberry Hill

2U08 0553 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U11 0703 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U18 0823 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U21 0933 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U28 1053 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U31 1203 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U38 1323 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U41 1433 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U48 1553 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U51 1703 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U58 1823 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U61 1933 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U68 2053 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U71 2203 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U78 2305 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Staines

2U09 0633 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U16 0753 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U19 0903 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U26 1023 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U29 1133 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U36 1253 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U39 1403 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U46 1523 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U49 1633 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U56 1753 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U59 1903 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U66 2023 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo

AM only
2H90 0523 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H89 0645 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H96 0800 Shepperton to Waterloo

2U07 0627 Twickenham to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U14 0726 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U17 0833 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U24 0953 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo

1D05 0624 Waterloo to Dorking FX
1D14 0730 Dorking to Waterloo FX

PM only (usually from 2 of the 3 AM only units but there is no guaranteed correlation)
2U45 1533 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U52 1653 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U55 1803 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U62 1923 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U65 2033 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U72 2153 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U75 2303 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside

2H93 1743 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H60 1836 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H59 1942 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H68 2041 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H67 2142 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H76 2241 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H77 2357 Waterloo to Shepperton

 

[swtrains]

So are you saying that SWR would hit a log jam while trying to get new units into service while needing the space for the units they were replacing ?.
Surely that should have been predictable.
But then what about all the space freed up by getting rid of 442s and 707s ?.

I agree there is unlikely to have been a single problem.
I dread to think how many hurdles are left to overcome and meanwhile the "new" trains sit gathering dust, rust and mould in sidings some near the sea (Marchwood) and others inland (Long Marston).
Enough hurdles have been seen and gone over.

It is times like this when I used to step pack from all the plausible excuses and have to accept there is a real big problem and its not getting solved.

Also, wasn't Feltham Depot specifically built to store 10 Class 701s? Why weren't they being stored there?

 

[Towers]

That is positive. Lets hope for a steady improvements soon after to stations to make them DOOable !.
In the meantime it will be the race to get more 701s ready I suspect (as in finding out what state they are in) vs staff passing out on the 701s.

Unsure why making stations “DOOable” is any sort of priority if a way to get the trains into service is finally on the cards? It will make no difference to anything vs driver open/guard close. If they finally end up successfully in service and working it’s probably best to just leave them alone, no?

Is it not also the case that current/upcoming driver training omits the dispatch element? I’m not sure it’ll be much of a help having to put them all through a fresh round of training for DOO? It would achieve nothing but further disruption for zero obvious benefit.

 

[800001]

Also, wasn't Feltham Depot specifically built to store 10 Class 701s? Why weren't they being stored there?

Store? Do you mean stable operation 701s when in passenger service?

 

[43066]

Never fear; things have been agreed upon with management and unions.

Training will restart after Easter, with driver open guard close being the method of operation going forward.

The desire to run driver open driver close is still there; however, infrastructure still does not meet the requirements currently. That may be reviewed in time.

Presumably the insistence on DCO training has now been dropped by the company side? Good news agreement has been reached. Although, once again, frustrating that there had to be yet another delay before this was agreed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Also, wasn't Feltham Depot specifically built to store 10 Class 701s? Why weren't they being stored there?

Some of them are kept there, but they are stabled rather than stored - two of the diagrams start from there (5U08 and 5H08).

But for long term storage a more secure facility is preferred, hence the ex-MoD sites at Marchwood and Long Marston.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I was worried about them before, but I've been on them when road learning again after coming back from illness and I quite like them.
Not worried about learning them now.
They did train the D.I.s at my depot only so far it seems.

Yeah, solid units and the most comfortable to brake with. Plenty of braking sometimes gets a few drivers at first who are used to Desiros.

Also, wasn't Feltham Depot specifically built to store 10 Class 701s? Why weren't they being stored there?

Feltham's 10 roads are not meant to be used for long term storing of units, many diagrams also leave and use those sidings. Two of the roads are CET roads aswell which wouldn't be ideal in any form for long term storage.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Yeah, solid units and the most comfortable to brake with.

What about acceleration (from a driver’s POV), how does that compare to the older trains

 

[03_179]

I believe that on weekdays they are

All Day
2H08 0543 Teddington to Waterloo
2H07 0642 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H16 0741 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H15 0842 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H24 0941 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H23 1042 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H32 1141 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H31 1242 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H40 1341 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H39 1442 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H48 1541 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H47 1642 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H56 1741 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H55 1842 Waterloo to Shepperton
5H64 1950 Shepperton to Waterloo
2U69 2133 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U76 2253 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2O77 0001 Waterloo to Strawberry Hill

2U08 0553 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U11 0703 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U18 0823 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U21 0933 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U28 1053 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U31 1203 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U38 1323 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U41 1433 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U48 1553 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U51 1703 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U58 1823 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U61 1933 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U68 2053 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U71 2203 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U78 2305 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Staines

2U09 0633 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U16 0753 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U19 0903 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U26 1023 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U29 1133 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U36 1253 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U39 1403 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U46 1523 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U49 1633 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U56 1753 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U59 1903 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U66 2023 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo

AM only
2H90 0523 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H89 0645 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H96 0800 Shepperton to Waterloo

2U07 0627 Twickenham to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U14 0726 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U17 0833 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U24 0953 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo

1D05 0624 Waterloo to Dorking FX
1D14 0730 Dorking to Waterloo FX

PM only (usually from 2 of the 3 AM only units but there is no guaranteed correlation)
2U45 1533 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U52 1653 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U55 1803 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U62 1923 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U65 2033 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside
2U72 2153 Windsor & Eton Riverside to Waterloo
2U75 2303 Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside

2H93 1743 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H60 1836 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H59 1942 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H68 2041 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H67 2142 Waterloo to Shepperton
2H76 2241 Shepperton to Waterloo
2H77 2357 Waterloo to Shepperton

Brilliant thank you very much

 

[Highview]

There's an emerging story about the increased cost of leasing 701s and other SWT stock from the May takeover by the DfT, I don't have access to the Telegrapth article but does anyone know the detail?

 

[adc82140]

If driver training is restarting in a couple of weeks, how long will it take, realistically, to have enough drivers signing 701s to be able to introduce further diagrams?

 

[NSEWonderer]

What about acceleration (from a driver’s POV), how does that compare to the older trains

Rapid, Its even better than the 707s acceleration wise and those were good at the time. The legacy Desiro's just lose their rapid acceleration after roughly 15-20 as the traction is dialed back to about 55% for the 450 and around 70ish for the 444 due to the restrictions, software wise on them, even then they're beat if it was unrestricted.

 

[Robski]

There's an emerging story about the increased cost of leasing 701s and other SWT stock from the May takeover by the DfT, I don't have access to the Telegrapth article but does anyone know the detail?

According to the article, the primary issue is that DfT insisted on a five year lease for the entire fleet, which the ROSCOs feel is too short. ROSCOs put up the leasing costs by 10-20% as a result.

Link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...lunder-taxpayers-extra-nationalise-rail-firm/

 

[OneTrackMinded]

According to the article, the primary issue is that DfT insisted on a five year lease for the entire fleet, which the ROSCOs feel is too short. ROSCOs put up the leasing costs by 10-20% as a result.

Link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...lunder-taxpayers-extra-nationalise-rail-firm/

There's a silver lining to this - with the increased costs, they'll surely be wanting to get rid the 455s even more so now and therefore more of a motivator to hurry up the 701 introduction

Rapid, Its even better than the 707s acceleration wise and those were good at the time.

Wow, that is really good then.

The legacy Desiro's just lose their rapid acceleration after roughly 15-20 as the traction is dialed back to about 55% for the 450 and around 70ish for the 444 due to the restrictions

So I've heard yes.

even then they're beat if it was unrestricted.

Very impressive

 

[43096]

I agree with your general point, but specifically on the 442s, they were initially going to be replaced by 458/4. Under the original SWR traction plan that included the 442s, there would have been no 458s of any variation with SWR by now, so all of those vehicles have to be accommodated somewhere.

Interesting to compare the "legacy" fleet at franchise start with what it is now. A reduction of well over 200 vehicles, which should leave plenty of stabling space for the 701s, even before considering that stabling space has increased (e.g. 10 x 10-car roads at Feltham).

	Franchise Start Vehicles	Vehicles Now	Change
158	20	20	+0
159	90	87	-3
442	90	0	-90
444	225	225	+0
450	508	508	+0
455	364	320	-44
456	48	0	-48
458/4	0	112	+112
458/5	180	35	-145
	1,525	1,307	-218