Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Invincible]

With the 701's it appears to be all the deviations from the standard platform that seem to be causing problems but given everyone is staying stumm and the railway press have pretty much failed to do any investigative journalism none of us really know.

6mins 30 sec ,the editor of Modern Railways talking about 701s, the smaller flatter cabs has caused some of the problems.

 

[D365]

6mins 30 sec ,the editor of Modern Railways talking about 701s, the smaller flatter cabs has caused some of the problems.

which party stipulated ”smaller flatter cabs” for the Class 701 build?

 

[tomuk]

Plenty of systems in cars have to adhere to the same SIL as trains like airbags, anti-lock brakes, and power steering and the engine management systems are very complex. The difference is they spend years and lots of money getting it right before they mass produce same as the airline industry. Bombardier had airline pedigree with all glass cockpits designs that were comparable with Airbus and Boeing with a product that was selling so well Airbus bought it so it should have had the wherewithal to have delivered on software design and implementation.

Airbus bought the C series because developing it had driven Bombardier close to bankruptcy all company resources were being funnelled into getting the plane ready for service. By the time Airbus bought into the program Bombardier had only delivered 24 planes.

Also the trains are ALLOWED to run on the network which means the safety systems and associated software have been approved. With the 701's it appears to be all the deviations from the standard platform that seem to be causing problems but given everyone is staying stumm and the railway press have pretty much failed to do any investigative journalism none of us really know.

The snub nose on the 701s has caused a problem specific to the class (and the gangwayed 730s) that has been resolved and the 701s just have their share of generic aventra\new train software faults\foibles. As evidenced by their acceptance by Rock Rail and SWR. Their non entry into service is now purely an industrial relations issue.

which party stipulated ”smaller flatter cabs” for the Class 701 build?

AIUI it was a both SWR and Bombardier. SWR wanted the 2x5 and the 10 car sets to take up the same amount of room. Bombardier need to redesign the cabs anyway to offer gangways other customers wanted and to offer a better product ie one with more passenger space. This similar to the early and later Mk3 EMUs 455\317 have the corridor behind the cab 321setc have the doors in the cab side.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Airbus bought the C series because developing it had driven Bombardier close to bankruptcy all company resources were being funnelled into getting the plane ready for service. By the time Airbus bought into the program Bombardier had only delivered 24 planes.

Yes but they had a good order book already and the plane has proven itself and Bombardier would have been better off sticking with that rather than rolling stock manufacturing.

The snub nose on the 701s has caused a problem specific to the class (and the gangwayed 730s) that has been resolved and the 701s just have their share of generic aventra\new train software faults\foibles. As evidenced by their acceptance by Rock Rail and SWR. Their non entry into service is now purely an industrial relations issue.

Rock Rail haven't submitted a mortgage charge to companies house for nearly four months mind you although that doesn't mean they aren't being accepted of course.

 

[XAM2175]

Bombardier had airline pedigree with all glass cockpits designs that were comparable with Airbus and Boeing with a product that was selling so well Airbus bought it so it should have had the wherewithal to have delivered on software design and implementation.

I can't help but think that if Bombardier Aviation had outsourced avionics development to a far-less-experienced office abroad like Bombardier Transportation apparently did with on-train software, they'd probably have had similar problems.

 

[3973EXL]

47727

Realtime Trains | 0Z84 0721 Eastleigh Trsmd to Marchwood Mod Gbrf | 07/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 0Z84 0721 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Marchwood Mod Gbrf on 07/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47727 701043

Realtime Trains | 5Q84 0926 Marchwood Mod Gbrf to Eastleigh Trsmd | 07/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q84 0926 departure from Marchwood Mod Gbrf to Eastleigh Trsmd on 07/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

47727

Realtime Trains | 0Z84 0721 Eastleigh Trsmd to Marchwood Mod Gbrf | 07/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 0Z84 0721 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Marchwood Mod Gbrf on 07/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q84 0926 Marchwood Mod Gbrf to Eastleigh Trsmd | 07/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q84 0926 departure from Marchwood Mod Gbrf to Eastleigh Trsmd on 07/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Does this mean trains are being swapped between works and storage, with modified train now going to storage at Marchwood.

I am guessing once physical modifications done, any software updates are fairly quick, and can be done anywhere, plug in a laptop etc, copy over, software updates being few minutes / hours rather than many days or many weeks of physical modifications.

 

[Bigfoot]

Their non entry into service is now purely an industrial relations issue.

Given that Aslef have accepted them to allow for Depot driver training this statement holds no water.

 

[cactustwirly]

The truth is until you go on one you just can't know that for sure.

But having been on 720s, 710s and 345s I can make a very well informed guess at what they'll be like

 

[444045]

47727 + 701043 on 5Q84 09+26 Marchwood MOD to Eastleigh Depot.

 

[AJDesiro]

But having been on 720s, 710s and 345s I can make a very well informed guess at what they'll be like

There’s nothing inherently wrong with Aventra’s from a pax perspective from my experience, having been on all of the different classes, the only issue on these ones are the seats (700 style ironing boards), lighting isn’t too harsh in my opinion, they’ll be great at what they’re going to do if/when they bed in. I wish they went for the seats WMT are going for in their 730s, but we can’t have everything!

 

[Energy]

Yes but they had a good order book already and the plane has proven itself and Bombardier would have been better off sticking with that rather than rolling stock manufacturing.

Bombardier's aviation division and rail division are effectively seperate companies. The rail division was based in Germany while aviation was Canada for starters...

The CSeries wasn't sold because it was wildly successful but to allow them to use Airbus' US plant, the sale of the remaining part of the CSeries was due to Bombardiers financial issues.

 

[cactustwirly]

There’s nothing inherently wrong with Aventra’s from a pax perspective from my experience, having been on all of the different classes, the only issue on these ones are the seats (700 style ironing boards), lighting isn’t too harsh in my opinion, they’ll be great at what they’re going to do if/when they bed in. I wish they went for the seats WMT are going for in their 730s, but we can’t have everything!

They could be nice trains, it's just the really poor ride that ruins it.
The 720s are actually nice trains otherwise

 

[Goldfish62]

There’s nothing inherently wrong with Aventra’s from a pax perspective from my experience, having been on all of the different classes, the only issue on these ones are the seats (700 style ironing boards), lighting isn’t too harsh in my opinion, they’ll be great at what they’re going to do if/when they bed in. I wish they went for the seats WMT are going for in their 730s, but we can’t have everything!

Fortunately they have the slightly better (less bad?) ironing boards rather than the Class 700 version. Think Class 195 seats without armrests.

 

[supervc-10]

It's not like car manufacturers don't have software issues. Look at all the issues VW Group have been having- various important new EVs have been delayed by software troubles with their 'Cariad' software subdivision. Software troubles affect a lot of companies.

 

[43096]

It's not like car manufacturers don't have software issues. Look at all the issues VW Group have been having- various important new EVs have been delayed by software troubles with their 'Cariad' software subdivision. Software troubles affect a lot of companies.

Indeed, my VW has had to have a complete re-flash of the software as the previous version was fighting with itself and coming up with all sorts of spurious errors.

 

[45076]

It's not like car manufacturers don't have software issues. Look at all the issues VW Group have been having- various important new EVs have been delayed by software troubles with their 'Cariad' software subdivision. Software troubles affect a lot of companies.

Totally agree, my new one has been delayed by 12 months. Totally off topic I know.....

 

[Samzino]

The main issue with the Bombardier Aventra Platform has been the outsourcing of software to 3rd parties more so of less experience railway wise. Its like when Boeing outsourced a ton of its work for the 787 abroad for cheaper work and ended up with expensive cases of poor quality materials and more notably batteries going up in smoke.

More onto topic the Class 345s which have several software issues (considering already the complexity of running 3 signal systems) are running software outsourced from India (as I was told) which means they don't actually have the software developers on hand to directly in a meeting or office environment on site tackle things directly and the general inexperience railway wise of the Software development team doing the work also means that details for fixes and updates must be run back and forth to very clear accuracy which is also adding higher time headways.

Funny enough the 720s haven't been as problematic software wise as the 345s and 701s seem to be. The 710s however I remember did initially have issues when rolling out like failing to open doors for X amount of time at stations etc but now seem fine.

The DFT imo also shares part blame here. Its been asking for cheap trains and thus been getting cheaply built ones. With whatever x amount finances manufacturers are getting from the DFT it's been reflecting on many of the new rolling stock.

 

[GeoffS]

They could be nice trains, it's just the really poor ride that ruins it.
The 720s are actually nice trains otherwise

Also apart from the narrow gangways and 3+2 seating (how often do THREE people actually sit in them(?) - surely confirmation that it's a bad idea).

 

[Stew27005]

Location update attached. Changes over the last 4 weeks are reflected via green shading. Thanks to those of you who have provided information and sightings, keep them coming!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The main issue with the Bombardier Aventra Platform has been the outsourcing of software to 3rd parties more so of less experience railway wise. Its like when Boeing outsourced a ton of its work for the 787 abroad for cheaper work and ended up with expensive cases of poor quality materials and more notably batteries going up in smoke.

More onto topic the Class 345s which have several software issues (considering already the complexity of running 3 signal systems) are running software outsourced from India (as I was told) which means they don't actually have the software developers on hand to directly in a meeting or office environment on site tackle things directly and the general inexperience railway wise of the Software development team doing the work also means that details for fixes and updates must be run back and forth to very clear accuracy which is also adding higher time headways.

Funny enough the 720s haven't been as problematic software wise as the 345s and 701s seem to be. The 710s however I remember did initially have issues when rolling out like failing to open doors for X amount of time at stations etc but now seem fine.

The DFT imo also shares part blame here. Its been asking for cheap trains and thus been getting cheaply built ones. With whatever x amount finances manufacturers are getting from the DFT it's been reflecting on many of the new rolling stock.

It's almost like these things should be designed in-house. With one design team covering signalling systems and train design - a BREL if you will.

 

[Samzino]

It's almost like these things should be designed in-house. With one design team covering signalling systems and train design - a BREL if you will.

Touché Tho the ever so Dwindling funds DFT throws at new train development will continue to lead to more outsourcing and thus more complications in the name of cost savings.

 

[XAM2175]

It's almost like these things should be designed in-house. With one design team covering signalling systems and train design - a BREL if you will.

BREL never designed signalling systems, and I think you'll find that the complexity involved nowadays is rather a lot more than it was when all BREL needed to do was fit basic AWS kit.

 

[Energy]

Touché Tho the ever so Dwindling funds DFT throws at new train development will continue to lead to more outsourcing and thus more complications in the name of cost savings.

Why would the DfT fund new train development? Manufacturers develop it at their own cost and recoup it on rolling stock orders. I don't think there is any country in Europe who directly funds R&D in rolling stock anymore.

 

[Samzino]

Why would the DfT fund new train development? Manufacturers develop it at their own cost and recoup it on rolling stock orders. I don't think there is any country in Europe who directly funds R&D in rolling stock anymore.

Doesn't the DFT approve rolling stock orders from TOCs? I may have worded it poorly but I'm quite sure they have some say or effect on new stock procurement and maybe not directly but indirectly led to some of the "cheaping" out that has been seen. I'm sure with some decent funds manufacturers can produce decent trains but if you've bid to meet a pretty low price range then its no surprise companies will outsource to meet the demand.

 

[Energy]

Doesn't the DFT approve rolling stock orders from TOCs?

I interpreted "new train development" to mean R&D rather than orders.

To answer your question: the DfT now does approve rolling stock orders but all of the Aventras have either been ordered by the old franchises or TfL. The trains the DfT has ordered (the 700s, 800s and 801s... and technically some 377s) have all been solidly built though with poor seats.

 

[Samzino]

I interpreted "new train development" to mean R&D rather than orders.

To answer your question: the DfT now does approve rolling stock orders but all of the Aventras have either been ordered by the old franchises or TfL. The trains the DfT has ordered (the 700s, 800s and 801s... and technically some 377s) have all been solidly built though with poor seats.

Ah ok thanks for the clarification yeh I thought indeed the seats thing was down to them but didn't think it was of topic to mention tho with solidly built the 800 seems to have a few issues of wear or ride quality issues with the build but other than that agreed the rest are solid

 

[Flange Squeal]

Location update attached. Changes over the last 4 weeks are reflected via green shading. Thanks to those of you who have provided information and sightings, keep them coming!

Just to annoy you so soon after publishing an update, 701035 was moved to Farnham this evening. This means over the last month or so, Farnham has gone from storing six, down to zero earlier this week, but now back up to one.

 

[Invincible]

Does this mean trains are being swapped between works and storage, with modified train now going to storage at Marchwood.

I am guessing once physical modifications done, any software updates are fairly quick, and can be done anywhere, plug in a laptop etc, copy over, software updates being few minutes / hours rather than many days or many weeks of physical modifications.

The mainline tests like 5Q51 1115 London Waterloo to Staines Up Loop on RTT have been cancelled this week, presumably all the physical modifications are complete and Alstom are waiting for a new software release update (after the 345 updates) to test on a test track, and then mainline?

 

[VicH]

Anyone know which 701 is in Wembley Yard?
Noted yesterday evening at 8.30pm