Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Stew27005]

For @Stew27005 records -

Class 701 moves today :

701014 & 701017 both moved from Clapham Yard to Eastleigh Depot within 30mins of each other.

701031 moved in the opposite direction from Eastleigh to Clapham Yard.

Thank you sir.

 

[3973EXL]

47749 701021 47727

Realtime Trains | 5Q54 0919 Derby Litchurch Lane to Worksop Down Yard | 29/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q54 0919 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Worksop Down Yard on 29/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Caped Ran LD 47749

Realtime Trains | 5Q10 1103 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 31/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q10 1103 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 31/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47749 701033

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0710 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 01/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0710 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 01/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1055 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 01/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1055 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 01/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47749 701041

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0710 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 02/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0710 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 02/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1009 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 02/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1009 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 02/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There have been a few posts talking about the 701s now being left cut in, meaning the modifications to the traction equipment have been done.

I managed to get a close up look at one last week... and here are a couple of pictures of relevance. One shows an additional sticker stating that the modifications have been done. The other shows two of a number of firmly bolted on brackets that are all around the edges of the casing, so rather than strapping them as has been suggested on this thread, the actual fix is rather firmer than a strap - and probably slows down the maintenance access as well, but at least it should stop things bursting all over the place!

The top brackets appear to be a beefed up and bolted closed adaption of the existing hinges.

The side ones appear to be more substantial and also have "tell tale" marks on them to watch for movement of the bolt covers.

 

[Milo T.K]

Guessing hopefully a step closer to service?

 

[3973EXL]

47727 701053

Realtime Trains | 5Q10 1104 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 05/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q10 1104 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 05/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47727

Realtime Trains | 0Z86 0655 Eastleigh Trsmd to Farnham C.S.D. | 06/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 0Z86 0655 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Farnham C.S.D. on 06/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47727 701029

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 1140 Farnham C.S.D. to Eastleigh Trsmd | 06/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 1140 departure from Farnham C.S.D. to Eastleigh Trsmd on 06/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[The_Train]

Realtime Trains | 5Q10 1104 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 05/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q10 1104 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 05/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Any confirmation of unit number from anywhere yet, anybody please?

 

[sharpinf]

Any confirmation of unit number from anywhere yet, anybody please?

Reported elsewhere at 701053

 

[Goldfish62]

Confirmed in RAIL Magazine that depot driver training started in April. No indication of when mainline training will start.

 

[The_Train]

Reported elsewhere at 701053

Thank you

 

[Fastlane256]

Anyone know when these trains are supposed to be out now, considering the new year dedline has gone and that they are 4 years late? Has anyone heard a date (confirmed or speculative)? I heard from SWR that they will definitely be out in 2023 but I highly doubt it at this point in time.

 

[Goldfish62]

G

Anyone know when these trains are supposed to be out now, considering the new year dedline has gone and that they are 4 years late? Has anyone heard a date (confirmed or speculative)? I heard from SWR that they will definitely be out in 2023 but I highly doubt it at this point in time.

Given that there are nearly seven more months left this year on the face of it this year is potentially credible (other TOCs manage to get new trains into service after 2-3 months of mainline training) , but based on previous promises I don't blame your scepticism.

 

[fgwrich]

Anyone know when these trains are supposed to be out now, considering the new year dedline has gone and that they are 4 years late? Has anyone heard a date (confirmed or speculative)? I heard from SWR that they will definitely be out in 2023 but I highly doubt it at this point in time.

Nope. Bombardier left Alstom with a mess, and we're fully paying the price for this charade. The biggest issue now seems to be software related, should the more recent platforms remain stable then we might start seeing some light in the end of a very long ended tunnel, but until then it's just limited training and continued mileage accumulation runs / dragging them from store to store. Should have just stuck with Siemens from the start!

 

[cactustwirly]

Nope. Bombardier left Alstom with a mess, and we're fully paying the price for this charade. The biggest issue now seems to be software related, should the more recent platforms remain stable then we might start seeing some light in the end of a very long ended tunnel, but until then it's just limited training and continued mileage accumulation runs / dragging them from store to store. Should have just stuck with Siemens from the start!

I agree, not withstanding the issues, the Aventra is a very poor platform. The 345s feel very cheap and nasty once you get underneath the glitzy TfL interior. They were rattling from day one, and the ride is frankly awful, a lot worse than a 387 or 800.

If the 458s were given new floors and seats then they would be a much nicer train than the 701s

How do the MTIN of the 455s and 458s compare to class 710s or 720s for example?

 

[Goldfish62]

I agree, not withstanding the issues, the Aventra is a very poor platform. The 345s feel very cheap and nasty once you get underneath the glitzy TfL interior. They were rattling from day one, and the ride is frankly awful, a lot worse than a 387 or 800.

If the 458s were given new floors and seats then they would be a much nicer train than the 701s

How do the MTIN of the 455s and 458s compare to class 710s or 720s for example?

Latest published data I could find in Modern Railways (all MTIN moving annual average):

To P6 22-23:
Class 455: 29K
Class 458/5: 17K (continues to be SWR's most unreliable unit, well except for the 484, but that's partly due to the low mileage of the latter units)

To P10 22-23:
Class 710/3: 16K

To P12 22-23:
Class 710/1: 13K
Class 710/2: 11K
Class 720/5: 10K
Class 345: 6K

If you follow Roger Ford's columns in Modern Railways you'll appreciate that (class 345 excepting) these are not bad numbers for the current generation of new trains!

 

[Wyrleybart]

I agree, not withstanding the issues, the Aventra is a very poor platform. The 345s feel very cheap and nasty once you get underneath the glitzy TfL interior. They were rattling from day one, and the ride is frankly awful, a lot worse than a 387 or 800.

Only ever travelled on two 345s - Reading - Burnham and Burnham back to Reading. Extremely unimpressed with the hard rides.

 

[Goldfish62]

Only ever travelled on two 345s - Reading - Burnham and Burnham back to Reading. Extremely unimpressed with the hard rides.

The ride quality is no worse than the CAF units. All to do with the inside frame bogies which reduce track wear, I believe.

 

[tasky]

this might be interesting to other Class 701 watchers - Transport for London's board papers say their Elizabeth Line Aventras (the class 345s) are still causing reliability issues

After citing Network Rail infrastructure west of Paddington they say the second key reliability issue is:

"the reliability of the class 345 trains. A further train software upgrade resolving some issues and bringing additional functionality has been rolled out and was fully loaded onto the fleet, ahead of the 21 May 2023 timetable change".

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g765/Public%20reports%20pack%20Wednesday%2007-Jun-2023%2010.00%20Board.pdf?T=10

I wonder if this bodes well for the 701s given they are pretty similar. Or maybe it is a sign that the issues will take a long time to figure out! Either way it is interesting to contrast the experiences.

 

[Goldfish62]

this might be interesting to other Class 701 watchers - Transport for London's board papers say their Elizabeth Line Aventras (the class 345s) are still causing reliability issues

After citing Network Rail infrastructure west of Paddington they say the second key reliability issue is:

"the reliability of the class 345 trains. A further train software upgrade resolving some issues and bringing additional functionality has been rolled out and was fully loaded onto the fleet, ahead of the 21 May 2023 timetable change".

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g765/Public%20reports%20pack%20Wednesday%2007-Jun-2023%2010.00%20Board.pdf?T=10

I wonder if this bodes well for the 701s given they are pretty similar. Or maybe it is a sign that the issues will take a long time to figure out! Either way it is interesting to contrast the experiences.

See my post #5505 - the MTIN (Miles per Technical INcident) says it all.

 

[tasky]

See my post #5505 - the MTIN (Miles per Technical INcident) says it all.

Very interesting figures. I'm surprised at the 455 numbers as well – I imagine their simplicity must outweigh the fact they are 40 years old!

It's probably too late to go back but you do have to wonder whether turning trains into computers has been worth it...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Very interesting figures. I'm surprised at the 455 numbers as well – I imagine their simplicity must outweigh the fact they are 40 years old!

Not as simple as they were when constructed but at least the traction retrofit didn't extend any further into the train

It's probably too late to go back but you do have to wonder whether turning trains into computers has been worth it...

Certainly been pretty disastrous for the 2nd generation EMUs across not only UK but also in Europe yet the car and industries have managed to integrate wide scale computer hardware and associated software successfully so it appears an implementation issue.

 

[43066]

Latest published data I could find in Modern Railways (all MTIN moving annual average):

To P6 22-23:
Class 455: 29K
Class 458/5: 17K (continues to be SWR's most unreliable unit, well except for the 484, but that's partly due to the low mileage of the latter units)

To P10 22-23:
Class 710/3: 16K

To P12 22-23:
Class 710/1: 13K
Class 710/2: 11K
Class 720/5: 10K
Class 345: 6K

If you follow Roger Ford's columns in Modern Railways you'll appreciate that (class 345 excepting) these are not bad numbers for the current generation of new trains!

As long fixed formation units are the 345s suffering from the same “double counting” issue as the 700s, leading to worst stats than are strictly fair?

 

[Goldfish62]

As long fixed formation units are the 345s suffering from the same “double counting” issue as the 700s, leading to worst stats than are strictly fair?

Really not sure on that one. I know it was raised about the Class 700, but Roger Ford dismissed it with a simple explanation, so simple that I've forgotten what he said!

 

[Mordac]

Not as simple as they were when constructed but at least the traction retrofit didn't extend any further into the train

Certainly been pretty disastrous for the 2nd generation EMUs across not only UK but also in Europe yet the car and industries have managed to integrate wide scale computer hardware and associated software successfully so it appears an implementation issue.

Maybe car companies haven't bunged off the software implementation to the cheapest code monkeys they could find?

 

[stuu]

Certainly been pretty disastrous for the 2nd generation EMUs across not only UK but also in Europe yet the car and industries have managed to integrate wide scale computer hardware and associated software successfully so it appears an implementation issue.

Not sure that's a very good comparison. Computers in cars don't have to interact with anything outside the car, and they (always?) let you drive off with the door slightly open or whatever. Rail implementations are far more complicated and have many more safety-critical functions built in. Which is a good thing if they ever get them to work properly

 

[MotCO]

Not sure that's a very good comparison. Computers in cars don't have to interact with anything outside the car, and they (always?) let you drive off with the door slightly open or whatever. Rail implementations are far more complicated and have many more safety-critical functions built in. Which is a good thing if they ever get them to work properly

Yes, I don't recall any cars fitted with ECTS !

 

[phil_]

Pretty sure I just saw 019 being pulled by a support loco in Eastleigh, didn't catch that one's # though.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Pretty sure I just saw 019 being pulled by a support train in Eastleigh, didn't catch that one's # though.

Looking at the time of your post, it might have been 029. Here's RTT timings for its arrival into Eastleigh. Plus, a photo of 029 behind a joyfully throaty 47727, as they passed Bedhampton today.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If the 458s were given new floors and seats then they would be a much nicer train than the 701s

The truth is until you go on one you just can't know that for sure.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not sure that's a very good comparison. Computers in cars don't have to interact with anything outside the car, and they (always?) let you drive off with the door slightly open or whatever. Rail implementations are far more complicated and have many more safety-critical functions built in. Which is a good thing if they ever get them to work properly

Plenty of systems in cars have to adhere to the same SIL as trains like airbags, anti-lock brakes, and power steering and the engine management systems are very complex. The difference is they spend years and lots of money getting it right before they mass produce same as the airline industry. Bombardier had airline pedigree with all glass cockpits designs that were comparable with Airbus and Boeing with a product that was selling so well Airbus bought it so it should have had the wherewithal to have delivered on software design and implementation.

Also the trains are ALLOWED to run on the network which means the safety systems and associated software have been approved. With the 701's it appears to be all the deviations from the standard platform that seem to be causing problems but given everyone is staying stumm and the railway press have pretty much failed to do any investigative journalism none of us really know.

 

[phil_]

Looking at the time of your post, it might have been 029. Here's RTT timings for its arrival into Eastleigh. Plus, a photo of 029 behind a joyfully throaty 47727, as they passed Bedhampton today.

Oopsies. I only even noticed it was 701 once we'd already passed it so i was squinting my best to try and catch it.