Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Goldfish62]

The ongoing bad relations with the unions over pay and working conditions also may not have helped?.

That hasn't stopped other new trains entering service, unless you're suggesting that industrial relations at SWR are even worse than elsewhere.

 

[Invincible]

That hasn't stopped other new trains entering service, unless you're suggesting that industrial relations at SWR are even worse than elsewhere.

They were bad at the beginning of the franchise, but the current GM, who was once a train driver, seems to trying to improve relations.
First losing the TPE contract is not good for First.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I saw 701 024 at Wembley this morning at around 06.30, if that helps anyone...?

 

[Wokingham]

Will each train have to go back to Derby to be cleaned up?

 

[Snow1964]

Now a year since filing of 31 Dec 2001 accounts by Rock Rail South Western plc. Will be interesting to see what is in the accounts notes (regarding compensation and lease payments etc) when latest set (31 Dec 2022) is filed. As a plc they have to file them by end June.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[fgwrich]

Now a year since filing of 31 Dec 2001 accounts by Rock Rail South Western plc. Will be interesting to see what is in the accounts notes (regarding compensation and lease payments etc) when latest set (31 Dec 2022) is filed. As a plc they have to file them by end June.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

I know we’ve been waiting a while for them but I don’t think we’ve been waiting since 2001, even if it feels like it

 

[Goldfish62]

They were bad at the beginning of the franchise, but the current GM, who was once a train driver, seems to trying to improve relations.
First losing the TPE contract is not good for First.

The MD was briefly a driver at Heathrow Express, yes.

 

[AlexNL]

Hopefully Alstom manages to get it sorted, both for the 701s and more generally

It looks like Alstom's solution to the software problems is to ditch the Bombardier stuff altogether!

The newest TRAXX3 locomotives which they are building for the German and international market will get Alstom software and kit in the cab. The ETCS retrofit to GN 387s is also being done using Alstom supplied kit, despite a Bombardier version already being in service with Heathrow Express!

 

[fgwrich]

Maybe, as discussed earlier, outsourcing software coding to India has caused a few problems until quality assurance settles down?
Also doing high profile major updates on the Elizabeth line Aventras may not have helped software resources?. The ongoing bad relations with the unions over pay and working conditions also may not have helped?.

From observations in the the CrossRail / Lizzie line thread, it seems the software still seems to be playing up on there too - perhaps the cause of some of the recent failures? Either way, Bombardier's outsourcing of it's software division seems to have been something of a headache for all of it's recent stock orders and the fact those 345s have been operating for very nearly 6 years now (yes, it's that long!) while still having to receive regular software updates doesn't feel like Alstom are one top of it all yet. Granted, some of those major updates thankfully involve complicated signalling systems the 701s won't ever go near, but it does seem like every time the 701s receive another update, it then knocks them backwards making reliability worse than before.

Perhaps, we've reached peak software usage on rolling stock, making every new fleet more complicated than the last?

 

[AlexNL]

Perhaps, we've reached peak software usage on rolling stock, making every new fleet more complicated than the last?

It's not a new problem.

15 years ago, Deutsche Bahn ordered a fleet of trains from Siemens - the Velaro D, or "second generation ICE 3", also known as Baureihe 407. Those trains were supposed to be very close to the existing ICE 3M, and DB expected to have them in service quickly.

In the end, software issues plagued the trains and type certification (and thus delivery) ended up getting delayed by 2 years. As compensation for the delay in delivery, Siemens gave a 17th train to DB free of charge.

 

[Robert Carroll]

The MD was briefly a driver at Heathrow Express, yes.

I think Mrs Mann was a driver with Heathrow Express for several years. I attended a talk she gave where she described driving the opening special with Tony Blair on board. The trains were so unreliable that she was accompanied in the cab by three technicians. They made it to what was then Heathrow T123 and after the press photos etc Blair and the media entourage departed and she set off for T4 (this was pre-T5) only for the train to break down in the tunnel. She said she had applied for a customer service role at HEx and was invited to do the aptitude test for driver applicants. She passed and they asked her if she would like to train as a driver and she decided to give it a go.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think Mrs Mann was a driver with Heathrow Express for several years. I attended a talk she gave where she described driving the opening special with Tony Blair on board. The trains were so unreliable that she was accompanied in the cab by three technicians. They made it to what was then Heathrow T123 and after the press photos etc Blair and the media entourage departed and she set off for T4 (this was pre-T5) only for the train to break down in the tunnel. She said she had applied for a customer service role at HEx and was invited to do the aptitude test for driver applicants. She passed and they asked her if she would like to train as a driver and she decided to give it a go.

I do know her work history thanks. I've worked for her.

 

[DelW]

I do know her work history thanks. I've worked for her.

The additional information in the post you quoted may well be interesting to other readers of this thread though. At least, it was to me.

 

[Goldfish62]

The additional information in the post you quoted may well be interesting to other readers of this thread though. At least, it was to me.

Indeed.

 

[Robert Carroll]

The additional information in the post you quoted may well be interesting to other readers of this thread though. At least, it was to me.

I think her career history is interesting. Mrs Mann probably has a better connection with the front line than many MDs, and not just in the rail industry. However, even she can't wave some kind of magic wand and get the 701s into service!

 

[wickham]

For interest, reference previous posts about a week ago:
701029 confirmed as still stabled out the back of Farnham Shed today (18.05.23): It is the only one there now.
MK

 

[Dan G]

The additional information in the post you quoted may well be interesting to other readers of this thread though. At least, it was to me.

And me. Driving for several years isn't "briefly" either.

Btw, where does the idea that the software for these trains is being developed in India? Afaik, Alstom's rolling stock software development and engineering centres are in France and Germany.

 

[jackot]

And me. Driving for several years isn't "briefly" either.

Btw, where does the idea that the software for these trains is being developed in India? Afaik, Alstom's rolling stock software development and engineering centres are in France and Germany.

Bombardier definitely moved their software development to Bangalore a few years back, and they were the ones who coded and designed the software package for the 701s, although the other Aventras use a different system not designed by them if I recall correctly - namely an older software that has been adapted to the Aventras. There are a fair number of fingers being pointed at the fact that it was likely this relocation and team that caused most of the issues with these units, although I have no idea whether they are still using them or whether they have decided to hand over to the Alstom teams as you said.

 

[800001]

From an organised visit around Long Marston this morning, the following 701s are stored there:-

701004, 026, 025, 018, 013, 050, 051, 052, 034, 048, 030, 023.

 

[Dan G]

Bombardier definitely moved their software development to Bangalore a few years back, and they were the ones who coded and designed the software package for the 701s, although the other Aventras use a different system not designed by them if I recall correctly - namely an older software that has been adapted to the Aventras. There are a fair number of fingers being pointed at the fact that it was likely this relocation and team that caused most of the issues with these units, although I have no idea whether they are still using them or whether they have decided to hand over to the Alstom teams as you said.

I don't think that's the case. All the 7xx Aventras use the same TCMS and while Bombardier have been in India for a decade-plus, they haven't moved anything beyond basic IT there.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I don't think that's the case. All the 7xx Aventras use the same TCMS and while Bombardier have been in India for a decade-plus, they haven't moved anything beyond basic IT there.

The base software must be standard as they wouldn't be allowed on NR infrastructure even for testing if the basic systems like braking, TPWS, AWS and GSMR had any issues. Maybe its not possible but why dont they just cut and paste the 720 software and forget about all the special stuff they committed to for FSWR.

 

[Chilternblue]

Can anyone please help, is there anywhere at Marchwood where it is possible to view and identify the class 701 units. Many thanks in advance.

 

[800001]

Can anyone please help, is there anywhere at Marchwood where it is possible to view and identify the class 701 units. Many thanks in advance.

Can’t help about how visible, but according to my records, the following 5 units are there:-

701019, 022, 032, 046 and 049.

 

[GeoffS]

Can’t help about how visible, but according to my records, the following 5 units are there:-

701019, 022, 032, 046 and 049.

Also 701016, 038, 043, 045

 

[Stew27005]

From an organised visit around Long Marston this morning, the following 701s are stored there:-

701004, 026, 025, 018, 013, 050, 051, 052, 034, 048, 030, 023.

Thanks 800001. Useful to validate my locations list.

 

[Goldfish62]

Bombardier definitely moved their software development to Bangalore a few years back, and they were the ones who coded and designed the software package for the 701s, although the other Aventras use a different system not designed by them if I recall correctly - namely an older software that has been adapted to the Aventras. There are a fair number of fingers being pointed at the fact that it was likely this relocation and team that caused most of the issues with these units, although I have no idea whether they are still using them or whether they have decided to hand over to the Alstom teams as you said.

I thought it was only the 345s that have older software which was adapted from the Electrostar.

 

[Snow1964]

The base software must be standard as they wouldn't be allowed on NR infrastructure even for testing if the basic systems like braking, TPWS, AWS and GSMR had any issues. Maybe its not possible but why dont they just cut and paste the 720 software and forget about all the special stuff they committed to for FSWR.

You do wonder why if the software works on a 720 both a single units and two coupled, and a 701 is 5car or effectively 2 permanently coupled to form a 10car, they didn't use the same basic software.

Of course Bombardier boldly claimed the Adventra train was modular and scaleable, so applying that, how does it take 3-4 years extra to add token number of modules into the software.

Perhaps a bigger question was why wasn't the software development started early enough so that it was written (properly) by time first train was assembled, seems to be treated as an afterthought.

 

[Dan G]

I thought it was only the 345s that have older software which was adapted from the Electrostar.

They do. The new 7xx Aventras use a new generation of software to the 345s.

My guess is that Alstom has judged that prioritising the development of the 345's software over that of the 701's, and paying a penalty to the rosoco rather than temporarily expanding their software development teams, is the most cost-effective path for them.

 

[Snow1964]

They do. The new 7xx Aventras use a new generation of software to the 345s.

If it's not a stupid question, why did they need a new generation of software (rather than few tweaks to existing generation), what features have the 7xx series Adventra got that 345 didn't that made existing software unsuitable.

Sort of feels like someone didn't like it, and decided to reinvent the wheel, rather than adapt the wheel they had. I could understand it if a new generation was ready, but not if new generation software would be 4-5 years after first train was supposed to be in service.

 

[43096]

My guess is that Alstom has judged that prioritising the development of the 345's software over that of the 701's, and paying a penalty to the rosoco rather than temporarily expanding their software development teams, is the most cost-effective path for them.

It may be the least cost effective path if the customer gets so hacked off it cancels the order.