Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[TEW]

Internal communications suggest the following order for 701 introduction:
Reading
Dorking and Hampton Court
Kingston Loop
Hounslow Loop & Weybridge
Woking, Guildford & Chessington
Windsor
Shepperton

 

[Snow1964]

Internal communications suggest the following order for 701 introduction:
Reading
Dorking and Hampton Court
Kingston Loop
Hounslow Loop & Weybridge
Woking, Guildford & Chessington
Windsor
Shepperton

Thanks for info,
Suggests there will be a mix of old and new trains for some places for a while
eg Epsom and Leatherhead tend to see a Dorking train alternate with a Guildford train
Similarly Kingston trains alternate between loop and Shepperton services

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks for info,
Suggests there will be a mix of old and new trains for some places for a while
eg Epsom and Leatherhead tend to see a Dorking train alternate with a Guildford train
Similarly Kingston trains alternate between loop and Shepperton services

And it's been suggested elsewhere that some 450s will remain on Reading services longer term anyway.

 

[hwl]

Internal communications suggest the following order for 701 introduction:
Reading
Dorking and Hampton Court
Kingston Loop
Hounslow Loop & Weybridge
Woking, Guildford & Chessington
Windsor
Shepperton

Cheers. That looks like removing some 450s and 458s upfront too on the Readings with the first 455s to go from Dorking and HC (presumably with some 456s being used strengthen some Woking, Guildford & Chessington services that are currently 10 car in the interim. Looks like the 707s staying on the Sheppertons till they go.

Given Mark Hopwoods recent "we've triaged the Shepperton service performance, Windsor line performance next" one does wonder if solutions involving more/all 10car with wide doors and large vestibules will be needed sooner rather than later so things might be rejigged again.

 

[Goldfish62]

Cheers. That looks like removing some 450s and 458s upfront too on the Readings with the first 455s to go from Dorking and HC (presumably with some 456s being used strengthen some Woking, Guildford & Chessington services that are currently 10 car in the interim. Looks like the 707s staying on the Sheppertons till they go.

Given Mark Hopwoods recent "we've triaged the Shepperton service performance, Windsor line performance next" one does wonder if solutions involving more/all 10car with wide doors and large vestibules will be needed sooner rather than later so things might be rejigged again.

I'm assuming by "Windsor line" he actually meant "Windsor Lines", ie Reading, Windsor, Hounslow loop, Chertsey. A performance enhancement is certainly needed on the Reading line.

 

[43096]

A performance enhancement is certainly needed on the Reading line.

The first step would be to eliminate 450 usage. The door cycle times on them kills sectional running times. I rather suspect, though, the "solution" will be to insert more padding in the timetable, as Great Western has done for years.

 

[hwl]

The first step would be to eliminate 450 usage. The door cycle times on them kills sectional running times. I rather suspect, though, the "solution" will be to insert more padding in the timetable, as Great Western has done for years.

The very short term solution is to run 707s instead of 455/456/458/450, the problems is there are only 30 units... Robbing Peter to pay Paul as the expression goes and they have already used that trick for Shepperton!

Removing the 450s needs the 701s...

 

[crablab]

Internal communications suggest the following order for 701 introduction:

The next question then is "when"...

 

[Ethano92]

Does anyone know how exactly the 701s will achieve even shorter dwell times than the 707s. Aventura have slightly slimmer and slower opening doors than desiro cities, their aisles appear to have been specified by the DfT to be equally wide also.

 

[samuelmorris]

Does anyone know how exactly the 701s will achieve even shorter dwell times than the 707s. Aventura have slightly slimmer and slower opening doors than desiro cities, their aisles appear to have been specified by the DfT to be equally wide also.

It was to do with automatic door opening wasn't it?

 

[Ethano92]

It was to do with automatic door opening wasn't it?

Yeah that might be it. I didn't realise it was completely down to the automatic braking/door opening but it'd make sense.

 

[hwl]

Yeah that might be it. I didn't realise it was completely down to the automatic braking/door opening but it'd make sense.

A uniform fleet (all 10car not just 70%) with the doors always being in the same places on the platforms will help in addition to ABDO.

More hand holds in the vestibules too.

 

[theking]

Does anyone know how exactly the 701s will achieve even shorter dwell times than the 707s.

When they become doo

 

[hwl]

When they become doo

I thought that elephant in the room wasn't allowed to be mentioned

 

[grumpyoldman01]

An item on BBC's East Midlands Today programme about the ALSTOM take-over of Bombardier tonight (18/2/20) showed a 701 on the test track at Derby running as a 25kvAC train

 

[Snow1964]

An item on BBC's East Midlands Today programme about the ALSTOM take-over of Bombardier tonight (18/2/20) showed a 701 on the test track at Derby running as a 25kvAC train

New trains are often certified on both systems, from memory the first two 707 had pantographs and transformers fitted for certification, they were then removed. Similarly the first 3 450s (or whatever the first 3 units of the 25 unit speculative order were classified at the time) were tested on both systems, think these got refitted and the ac parts ended up in 360s

The one on the Velim test track is on ac as that doesn't have third rail

It means the train can subsequently be leased to an ac (or dual voltage) Operator if required.

However I would not expect fitting of pantographs and transformers to the 701s except for initial test units (and the test ones may have borrowed equipment intended for the Anglia units, so will be removed after testing)

 

[grumpyoldman01]

New trains are often certified on both systems, from memory the first two 707 had pantographs and transformers fitted for certification, they were then removed. Similarly the first 3 450s (or whatever the first 3 units of the 25 unit speculative order were classified at the time) were tested on both systems, think these got refitted and the ac parts ended up in 360s

The one on the Velim test track is on ac as that doesn't have third rail
the first
It means the train can subsequently be leased to an ac (or dual voltage) Operator if required.

However I would not expect fitting of pantographs and transformers to the 701s except for initial test units (and the test ones may have borrowed equipment intended for the Anglia units, so will be removed after testing)

My main reason for posting was to make people who don't live in the East Midlands and who are interested in this project aware that a 701 was shown on a news bulletin under test in Derby as a 25kv AC train.

I am aware of the process followed by the 707s and that it is typical to get modern EMUs certified to operate under the two systems found in Britain, but I must admit that I was surprised to see it being tested as a 25kv AC train; Bombardier's software problems have been well documented, but 710s are now in use as either 25kv AC or dual voltage trains, there's a 701 under test at Velim using 25kv AC, and 720s - which are also 25kv AC only trains - are under test as well, and so as the 701s will be the first DC only Aventras, I would have expected Bombardier to have equipped an early train with just a DC traction package and for the 3rd rail equipped Derby test track to be used for early and intensive testing at that voltage in case the omission of certain components which are only required for either AC or dual voltage operation create "problems", and further delay delivery and acceptance of these EMUs.

 

[crablab]

I would have expected Bombardier to have equipped an early train with just a DC traction package and for the 3rd rail equipped Derby test track to be used for early and intensive testing at that voltage in case the omission of certain components which are only required for either AC or dual voltage operation create "problems", and further delay delivery and acceptance of these EMUs

I think in practice that is unlikely to save much, if any time. By just removing the AC component you don't have to test it, but then you probably have to rewrite the software anyway to accommodate that piece of hardware not being there! Given, I hope, the software will be unit tested anyway, the issues will be with using the software in practice and the interfacing of different components. Which is exactly what testing the unit in different possible configurations is designed to uncover.
Just removing a piece of functionality and hoping to add it back later really is not trivial!

 

[Domh245]

I would have expected Bombardier to have equipped an early train with just a DC traction package and for the 3rd rail equipped Derby test track to be used for early and intensive testing at that voltage in case the omission of certain components which are only required for either AC or dual voltage operation create "problems", and further delay delivery and acceptance of these EMUs.

As I understand it, the "AC traction package" can essentially be regarded as the "DC traction package" plus a transformer and rectifier - they both work around a ~750v DC bus input, which is fed from the shoegear when in DC third rail mode, and from the rectifier in AC OLE mode having been stepped down to the correct voltage. The only effect that removing the AC equipment should have is making it lighter!

 

[hwl]

As I understand it, the "AC traction package" can essentially be regarded as the "DC traction package" plus a transformer and rectifier - they both work around a ~750v DC bus input, which is fed from the shoegear when in DC third rail mode, and from the rectifier in AC OLE mode having been stepped down to the correct voltage. The only effect that removing the AC equipment should have is making it lighter!

Pretty much - this isn't the 319s 30+Years ago.

 

[swt_passenger]

As I understand it, the "AC traction package" can essentially be regarded as the "DC traction package" plus a transformer and rectifier - they both work around a ~750v DC bus input, which is fed from the shoegear when in DC third rail mode, and from the rectifier in AC OLE mode having been stepped down to the correct voltage. The only effect that removing the AC equipment should have is making it lighter!

The other way of looking at this is realising that the 701 still has an "AC traction package". No recent trains have a DC traction package. It's the incoming end of the power supply that changes...

 

[grumpyoldman01]

As I understand it, the "AC traction package" can essentially be regarded as the "DC traction package" plus a transformer and rectifier - they both work around a ~750v DC bus input, which is fed from the shoegear when in DC third rail mode, and from the rectifier in AC OLE mode having been stepped down to the correct voltage. The only effect that removing the AC equipment should have is making it lighter!

"Should" in the last sentence is the key word!

I'm not an electrical engineer, but my understanding of the 3-phase AC traction package is that it works around a DC bus, and that the 701s will basically have the same equipment as all the 7XX series Aventras, but I've read somewhere that the 345s are different and that they have a traction package based upon (but different to) that installed on Electrostars; therefore, the 701 traction package should, in simple terms, be like a 710 but without the transformer/rectifier and other bits needed to make it into an AC or dual voltage EMU. But I'm sure many of us can remember incidents happening which shouldn't, in theory, have happened; the railway is a very harsh environment, full of surprises, and Bombardier have had many problems of late, so I would have thought that they would have been doing all they could to ensure that nothing emerges which will cause further problems for the company when the "AC bits" are removed and the traction package is subject to a 750v DC 3rd-rail supply only.

Going off topic, Adtranz took a withdrawn 4-CEP over to Vasteras and used it for development work and testing of the Electrostar traction package; anyone know if anything similar was done for Aventras?

 

[4REP]

A name for a suburban commuter fleet seems like a bit of an odd one, although I suppose they're allowed to refer to them however they like internally!

I might cheekily suggest 5/10ARS - Aventra Reading Suburban :P

How about 5/10 Sub I know we had sub used before but not the 5/10 bit!

 

[Socanxdis]

Just came across this excellent video on YouTube

 

[swt_passenger]

Just came across this excellent video on YouTube

Was also posted twice in this thread last month. Posts #1282 and #1295.
You have to be a lot quicker

 

[theironroad]

Any news of how many are ready and when will they be arriving on SWR metals for testing/use?

 

[Bigfoot]

There is a rumour doing the rounds one is due to arrive very soon, as for when? who knows.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is a rumour doing the rounds one is due to arrive very soon, as for when? who knows.

The plan published as of late last year was for the first 10 car unit to arrive with SWR in "early 2020".

 

[superalbs]

Forgot to post these, I took some photos of an unidentifiable five car unit at Velim last week.

 

[Ethano92]

Forgot to post these, I took some photos of an unidentifiable five car unit at Velim last week.
View attachment 75345
View attachment 75339
View attachment 75340
View attachment 75341
View attachment 75342
View attachment 75343

Those are some really nice photos, but it does lead me to ask how we've only seen 5 cars but 10 car units are supposed to be introduced first (explicitly 10 car units not 2x5car)

Also interesting the Desiros in my opinion look far better than any of the other units in SWR colours (442s and diesels), as for these I'll wait for the complete livery to be applied.