Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Goldfish62]

701028 seems to have been sat on 11 road at Clapham cut-in for the last few days (no portable red tail lamp) - does this mean that they have got to the bottom of the exploding capacitors?

Yes, I've noticed it there, with tail lights on.

 

[Elorith]

701028 seems to have been sat on 11 road at Clapham cut-in for the last few days (no portable red tail lamp) - does this mean that they have got to the bottom of the exploding capacitors?

As of about 12 hours ago, there were 5 of them at Feltham, 3 at Clapham Yard, and 3 at Wimbledon Park, switched off so I would guess it's not universally solved if it has been.

 

[Recessio]

Bombardier simply isn't competent in ironing out the problems which have come with the custom design. They have shown that they can deliver a reliable product using an established design such as the Electrostar.

The electrostar/turbostars were an ABB/AdTranz design, which also owes a lot to ABB/BREL's Networker designs. So Bombardier can successfully build someone else's design fairly competently.

However, look at Bombardier's track record with units they actually designed: Voyagers/Meridians had terrible introductions and still have problems today. The Aventras are plagued with teething issues. Although interestingly their LU 2009/S7/S8 stock seems pretty reliable after an iffy introduction.

Alstom themselves also famously really struggled with the 458/460s (but then again their 95 LU stock are basically bulletproof!)

But the main point does seem to be that Bombardier's own in-house designs on the whole seem to have problems, which they didn't have when building someone else's (ABB/AdTranz) designs.

 

[Carlisle]

However, look at Bombardier's track record with units they actually designed: Voyagers/Meridians had terrible introductions and still have problems today.

From memory Voyager introduction was generally considered successful & on time although Cummins engines & tilt system’s have caused some reliability problems over the years

 

[jackot]

From memory Voyager introduction was generally considered successful & on time, although Cummins engines & tilt system’s have caused some reliability problems over the years

Yes, if there is one thing you can't fault the Voyagers for it is their reliability. Basically, most (if not all) of Bombardiers' own trains have had serious issues and/or delays into service; their only successful design being the Stars', which they didn't design.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, if there is one thing you can't fault the Voyagers for it is their reliability. Basically, most (if not all) of Bombardiers' own trains have had serious issues and/or delays into service; their only successful design being the Stars', which they didn't design.

The Electrostars did have significant problems initially.

 

[Robert Carroll]

I went to an RCTS talk yesterday evening where Claire Mann, MD of SWR, was the speaker. Her message was that she is not accepting more 701s and won't begin driver training until some remaining issues are sorted out, notably another software drop towards the end of this year. She seemed hopeful that things would get going after that. The capacitors issue was not raised in the discussion (I forgot about it and she did not mention it) but it seems that the software is still the main issue as it keeps on crashing when they try to start up a unit. My impression was that there is no major dispute with the unions regarding the 701s but that the unions want a train that works and so does she. As Mrs Mann used to be a train driver, she can see the drivers' point of view.

 

[deepeetw]

Yes, I've noticed it there, with tail lights on.

And now it’s back with the portable light, so I assume it’s just an abberation.

 

[PG]

it seems that the software is still the main issue as it keeps on crashing when they try to start up a unit

Once they do get them started will they end up with notices taped to the drivers desk? - Do NOT switch off

 

[nlogax]

Once they do get them started will they end up with notices taped to the drivers desk? - Do NOT switch off

"Have you tried not turning it off and on again?"

 

[DelW]

I went to an RCTS talk yesterday evening where Claire Mann, MD of SWR, was the speaker. Her message was that she is not accepting more 701s and won't begin driver training until some remaining issues are sorted out, notably another software drop towards the end of this year. She seemed hopeful that things would get going after that. The capacitors issue was not raised in the discussion (I forgot about it and she did not mention it) but it seems that the software is still the main issue as it keeps on crashing when they try to start up a unit. My impression was that there is no major dispute with the unions regarding the 701s but that the unions want a train that works and so does she. As Mrs Mann used to be a train driver, she can see the drivers' point of view.

Unfortunately, various people in senior positions have been "hopeful" that the trains would enter service "soon" for about three years now. So far, this hope has never been justified. So the situation continues that passengers have to put up with short-forms and reduced timetables, and Wimbledon has to keep patching up 455s that have been dragged back off the scrap lines.

 

[Robert Carroll]

Unfortunately, various people in senior positions have been "hopeful" that the trains would enter service "soon" for about three years now. So far, this hope has never been justified. So the situation continues that passengers have to put up with short-forms and reduced timetables, and Wimbledon has to keep patching up 455s that have been dragged back off the scrap lines.

I know! We shall have to wait and see what happens. Mrs Mann was clearly frustrated by the situation.

 

[Elorith]

Unfortunately, various people in senior positions have been "hopeful" that the trains would enter service "soon" for about three years now. So far, this hope has never been justified. So the situation continues that passengers have to put up with short-forms and reduced timetables, and Wimbledon has to keep patching up 455s that have been dragged back off the scrap lines.

The reduced timetables, arguably, are mostly not related to 701 introduction, but due to the DfT's opinion of what the service ought to be. I highly doubt 4tph to Leatherhead via Wimbledon/Epsom is ever going to come back for example.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So the situation continues that passengers have to put up with short-forms and reduced timetables

SWR have clearly stated the reduced timetables are due to lack of demand and regardless of new trains being in traffic or not those services won’t come back unless there is significant growth.

and Wimbledon has to keep patching up 455s that have been dragged back off the scrap lines.

This is not unusual with new fleet introduction. Remember the delays introducing the cl365s first delivered to Ramsgate in November 1994 but not in squadron service until June 1997. So much so that CEPs has to be life extended similar to 455s and also reduced to 3 cars to try and meet the planned accelerated CL 365 timetable.

 

[Snow1964]

I went to an RCTS talk yesterday evening where Claire Mann, MD of SWR, was the speaker. Her message was that she is not accepting more 701s and won't begin driver training until some remaining issues are sorted out, notably another software drop towards the end of this year. She seemed hopeful that things would get going after that. The capacitors issue was not raised in the discussion (I forgot about it and she did not mention it) but it seems that the software is still the main issue as it keeps on crashing when they try to start up a unit. My impression was that there is no major dispute with the unions regarding the 701s but that the unions want a train that works and so does she. As Mrs Mann used to be a train driver, she can see the drivers' point of view.

So although there are some problems with few specific parts, the main problem is software.

There is quite a good bit of background reading (linked) on whilst so many projects are being delayed by software. Generally not understood that it can be longest to develop reliably, and should not really be incorporated in a physical design (which will be a known evolution of a previous design) until the software is already working. Taking the approach you can develop software after starting the actual build inevitably goes wrong.

Why is my infrastructure project delayed by software bugs? - HKA

When we think of big infrastructure projects, we tend to focus on roads, bridges, tunnels and buildings. Traditionally, infrastructure upgrades involved civil and structural engineering, with most of the project costs related to this scope. Also, typically, it was the structural scope that...

www.hka.com

My take is that if software is not already written and working on another train somewhere in the world, then don’t specify it, as it will be a fools errand like waiting for someone to reinvent the wheel. Clearly team ordering class 701s didn’t understand this, when they ordered a train 5.5 years ago with reliable software at least 5.5 years beyond the order date.

 

[Robert Carroll]

SWR have clearly stated the reduced timetables are due to lack of demand and regardless of new trains being in traffic or not those services won’t come back unless there is significant growth.

In the talk, Mrs Mann commented that commuter traffic across the week is only just over half what it was pre-COVID. She noted that the Epsom line is the busiest of the suburban routes and from the December timetable change there will be two additional evening peak services. My local station (Worcester Park) will probably never see a regular 4 tph service Mon-Sat again. Mrs Mann also observed that SWR would end up with more 701s than it needed for the likely level of services. She did not hint at what might happen with the excess.

 

[N0G83]

I went to an RCTS talk yesterday evening where Claire Mann, MD of SWR, was the speaker. Her message was that she is not accepting more 701s and won't begin driver training until some remaining issues are sorted out, notably another software drop towards the end of this year. She seemed hopeful that things would get going after that. The capacitors issue was not raised in the discussion (I forgot about it and she did not mention it) but it seems that the software is still the main issue as it keeps on crashing when they try to start up a unit. My impression was that there is no major dispute with the unions regarding the 701s but that the unions want a train that works and so does she. As Mrs Mann used to be a train driver, she can see the drivers' point of view.

What is a RCTS talk? for the General public or Rail Industry?

 

[DelW]

What is a RCTS talk? for the General public or Rail Industry?

I knew the answer, but even if you don't, the first result from a Google search is:

The Railway Correspondence & Travel Society – Britain's Leading Railway Society

rcts.org.uk

The RCTS is Britain’s leading organisation for people interested in all aspects of railways past, present and future and is highly regarded by both professional railway people and enthusiasts, a position it has held since its formation in 1928.

 

[N0G83]

I knew the answer, but even if you don't, the first result from a Google search is:

The Railway Correspondence & Travel Society – Britain's Leading Railway Society

rcts.org.uk

Thank you

 

[InOban]

Why is the software for the 701 so different from that for other Aventras?

 

[Carlisle]

Why is the software for the 701 so different from that for other Aventras?

Thats what I was wondering, unless it’s connected to the much discussed ABDO function .

 

[Robert Carroll]

What is a RCTS talk? for the General public or Rail Industry?

It was the Railway Correspondence & Travel Society Surrey Branch meeting at Woking. They have some really good speakers and the meetings are open to non-members. Andrew Haines from Network Rail did a talk recently and Tim Shoveller is doing one soon. Gordon Pettitt did one a while back but I was not able to attend.

 

[Goldfish62]

I went to an RCTS talk yesterday evening where Claire Mann, MD of SWR, was the speaker. Her message was that she is not accepting more 701s and won't begin driver training until some remaining issues are sorted out, notably another software drop towards the end of this year. She seemed hopeful that things would get going after that. The capacitors issue was not raised in the discussion (I forgot about it and she did not mention it) but it seems that the software is still the main issue as it keeps on crashing when they try to start up a unit. My impression was that there is no major dispute with the unions regarding the 701s but that the unions want a train that works and so does she. As Mrs Mann used to be a train driver, she can see the drivers' point of view.

Thanks for the update. At least we now know the latest official position.

I note that SWR won't be accepting any "more" 701s until the software problems are sorted. This presumably refers to the 17 units acquired by Rock Rail SW and therefore accepted.

 

[Roger B]

Thanks for the update. At least we now know the latest official position.

I note that SWR won't be accepting any "more" 701s until the software problems are sorted. This presumably refers to the 17 units acquired by Rock Rail SW and therefore accepted.

Apologies if this has been definitively answered above, but is acceptance by Rock Rail SW (who own the trains and lease them to SWR) the same as acceptance by SWR, or do SWR have their own acceptance practice / criteria over-and-above those required by Rock Rail SW?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In the talk, Mrs Mann commented that commuter traffic across the week is only just over half what it was pre-COVID. She noted that the Epsom line is the busiest of the suburban routes and from the December timetable change there will be two additional evening peak services. My local station (Worcester Park) will probably never see a regular 4 tph service Mon-Sat again. Mrs Mann also observed that SWR would end up with more 701s than it needed for the likely level of services. She did not hint at what might happen with the excess.

Its been obvious for sometime that many operators with new stock on order will have too much stock for the services now required to be delivered. Here its pretty obvious you take the 458's off lease there's no point splitting the fleet up. Of course in reality SWR would have been better off with an all Siemens fleet but the boat has long sailed.

 

[43096]

Here its pretty obvious you take the 458's off lease there's no point splitting the fleet up.

Ah, more forum “fantasy fleets” games that take no notice of commercial realities.

The 458s are on lease to 2027, the 450s to 2025 and are more expensive to lease. In an era of cost savings, which fleet are you off leasing?

 

[the sniper]

I went to an RCTS talk yesterday evening where Claire Mann, MD of SWR, was the speaker. Her message was that she is not accepting more 701s and won't begin driver training until some remaining issues are sorted out, notably another software drop towards the end of this year.

Not ASLEF to blame then...

 

[Snow1964]

Apologies if this has been definitively answered above, but is acceptance by Rock Rail SW (who own the trains and lease them to SWR) the same as acceptance by SWR, or do SWR have their own acceptance practice / criteria over-and-above those required by Rock Rail SW?

The terms of the contract are commercial and not published.

From what I gather, seems SWR acceptance is based on completing fault free running (I know some other fleets have been 250 miles, but don’t know parameters for the 701s)

Rock Rail presumably pay for and own the delivered trains at an earlier stage, based on wouldn’t be able to raise a legal charge if didn’t own them. I am guessing they have taken ownership of the 17 with charges, but might own more. However their accounts show large amounts of compensation from manufacture which suggests there are conditions that are supposed to be met that aren’t.

The legal charges are there, as Rock Rail have borrowed funds from banks etc. And if they don’t keep up payments the lender can take ownership and sell it to cover their outstanding loan (same basic process as a domestic mortgage).

My hunch (based on finance knowledge, ignoring the engineering side) is that condition to buy them was met (built and delivered), but the faults and lack of reliability is resulting in penalty clause triggering, so effectively getting lease rentals covered by manufacturer rather than from SWR, as whilst faulty mean cannot be leased to SWR. Without knowing the terms probably have few weeks to complete fault free running, after which receipts (either lease or compensation cut in). Possibly Rock Rail are making a short term gain as the penalty would normally be more than rental to discourage delays.

 

[Robert Carroll]

Thanks for the update. At least we now know the latest official position.

I note that SWR won't be accepting any "more" 701s until the software problems are sorted. This presumably refers to the 17 units acquired by Rock Rail SW and therefore accepted.

I think this is what the MD meant. She commented that stabling was an issue as they have the existing 455 fleet to accommodate until withdrawal as well as the 701s.

Not ASLEF to blame then...

The MD was not blaming them. She was a train driver with Heathrow Express when it first started running and recalled how unreliable the trains were to begin with, and she doesn't want that happening on SWR with the 701s. She also observed that other Aventra fleets in service are having reliability issues.

Why is the software for the 701 so different from that for other Aventras?

If I understood correctly, Alstom have rebuilt the software on the 701s. Apparently, it takes 40 minutes for a train to boot up and if the system crashes during that phase, it starts again from scratch.

 

[the sniper]

The MD was not blaming them. She was a train driver with Heathrow Express when it first started running and recalled how unreliable the trains were to begin with, and she doesn't want that happening on SWR with the 701s. She also observed that other Aventra fleets in service are having reliability issues.

She certainly wasn't. People here went through a phase of being convinced that ASLEF must be to blame though.