Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[JonathanH]

Not at all thanks, was answering where and when the first passenger working is/was.

Ah sorry. I will correct training for "something" then.

 

[Carlisle]

ASOS is "action short of a strike" - it means that training keeps being put back as a result of industrial action.

Ok thanks.

 

[3973EXL]

701524

Realtime Trains | 5Q20 0912 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 24/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q20 0912 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 24/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Jamesrob637]

701524

Realtime Trains | 5Q20 0912 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 24/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q20 0912 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 24/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Not on its own I hope

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given that crew training has seemingly started on the 701s

But it hasn't.

Why not?
(Transferred from 458/4 thread)

 

[Goldfish62]

Why not?
(Transferred from 458/4 thread)

When depot driver training had already started it was denied on this thread...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When depot driver training had already started it was denied on this thread...

Yes, too many members giving contradictory updates!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I wonder when the phase 'Operator of Last Resort' will start to appear ? Not only the operator is at fault,but the train builders and in some part the operators employees. We are rapidly approaching the point when all of the 701s have been constructed,and still the existing rolling stock is being maintained and leased,whilst the new fleet of trains is in paid storage or yet to carry a fare paying passenger.Oh,and the builder is likely to close the plant that built them before much longer.Less than ideal?

SWR has taken 701's onto its books so it will be liable for leasing cost as well now and no doubt First Group allowed to charge a management fee as well on two lots of stock.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder when the phase 'Operator of Last Resort' will start to appear ? Not only the operator is at fault,but the train builders and in some part the operators employees. We are rapidly approaching the point when all of the 701s have been constructed,and still the existing rolling stock is being maintained and leased,whilst the new fleet of trains is in paid storage or yet to carry a fare paying passenger.Oh,and the builder is likely to close the plant that built them before much longer.Less than ideal?

While I don't think there'd actually be much the OLR could do, although I appreciate you could wish for an OLR simply to punish First for their less-than exemplary operation of the service, I do wish SWR would actually speak out honestly and tell their patrons WHY these trains are still not in service. It's infuriating to have no explanation, and besides, without knowing the reasons some will start to speculate, which doesn't often end well.

 

[pompeyfan]

For clarification here. Crewed by SWR management and trainers. Not Mainline Drivers.

That goes against what I’ve been told this week, but I’ll bow to your knowledge.

On a different note there was an SWR operated 701 at Basingstoke today according to RTT. I’ll try and find the path later.

 

[spark001uk]

On a different note there was an SWR operated 701 at Basingstoke today according to RTT. I’ll try and find the path later.

That would be 5Q75/76, on VSTP. Was booked another run on 5Q77/78, but looks like it went back into Clapham after the first run.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

While I don't think there'd actually be much the OLR could do, although I appreciate you could wish for an OLR simply to punish First for their less-than exemplary operation of the service, I do wish SWR would actually speak out honestly and tell their patrons WHY these trains are still not in service. It's infuriating to have no explanation, and besides, without knowing the reasons some will start to speculate, which doesn't often end well.

About time the Transport Select Committee should do an inquiry into why new trains take so long to get into service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

About time the Transport Select Committee should do an inquiry into why new trains take so long to get into service.

Perhaps yes, though how anti-climactic if they did just that and nothing was achieved from it, with trains continuing to take 4-6 years to enter service from being ordered.

 

[JonathanH]

About time the Transport Select Committee should do an inquiry into why new trains take so long to get into service.

The straightforward response would surely be that safe operation needs to be established.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

As you all said, the ASLEF union will be taking strike action very soon. I know this is not law but this should be law. Any Union that is taking strike action should have to negotiate with the company they are taking strike action against. That should be mandatory.

 

[InOban]

The straightforward response would surely be that safe operation needs to be established.

Who decides whether the trains and their operating procedures are safe, or rather safe enough, since nothing is completely safe?

 

[norbitonflyer]

I know this is not law but this should be law. Any Union that is taking strike action should have to negotiate with the company they are taking strike action against. That should be mandatory.

And if the company refuse to negotiate?

 

[St. Paddy]

As you all said, the ASLEF union will be taking strike action very soon. I know this is not law but this should be law. Any Union that is taking strike action should have to negotiate with the company they are taking strike action against. That should be mandatory.

ASLEF would love to negotiate with the individual company rather than the government mouthpiece RDG, a quango with no legitimacy. The fact that the negotiations have broken down is why there’s industrial action.

 

[Invincible]

ASLEF would love to negotiate with the individual company rather than the government mouthpiece RDG, a quango with no legitimacy. The fact that the negotiations have broken down is why there’s industrial action.

ASLEF: train drivers' union sets more strikes | ASLEF

After Mark Harper disingenuously told a House of Commons Select Committee that there is 'an offer on the table' - there isn't as he well knows - we have announced a new programme of rolling strikes

aslef.org.uk

ASLEF have questioned the role of Mark Harper

 

[Dan G]

While I don't think there'd actually be much the OLR could do, although I appreciate you could wish for an OLR simply to punish First for their less-than exemplary operation of the service, I do wish SWR would actually speak out honestly and tell their patrons WHY these trains are still not in service. It's infuriating to have no explanation, and besides, without knowing the reasons some will start to speculate, which doesn't often end well.

There are bits of information out there, for example in December 2022 the BBC quoted a FoI to the DfT apparently stating

Work continues with Alstom for a pre-passenger service software update... in order to bring those units to entry into service standard.

First of £1bn trains to run in 2023, South Western Railway says

The high-capacity Arterio trains would enter service with South Western Railway three years late.

www.bbc.co.uk

Same article also says (not quoting the FoI response)

The fleet of 750 Derby-built carriages has faced numerous software faults which have still not been fully resolved, BBC South transport correspondent Paul Clifton said.

Problems with door obstacle detectors have prevented the trains from being accepted for driver training, according to the train drivers' union ASLEF.

Other reported issues have included the coupling process, faulty windscreen wipers and cab doors that were difficult to open.

In October 2021 https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/train-drivers-refuse-test-brand-22001357 said:

Industry sources report that one of the biggest concerns raised by drivers is the train’s windscreen wipers. When taking the trains for test drives on SWR lines they have noticed that at several locations the windscreen wiper blocks their view of the signals.

As this is potentially unsafe, they have informed their unions and SWR that they will not be continuing to test drive the trains until the windscreen wipers are re-positioned and other ongoing problems such as faulty software are resolved.

MyLondon has seen documents from Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen (ASLEF) which suggest that the train drivers' union has instructed SWR to make urgent changes to the trains and until then its members will not test drive them. A spokesperson for ASLEF told MyLondon: “We are having issues with the Class 701s and the cabs are being modified but that is not the only issue.

"We are in discussions with SWR and Alstom/Bombardier as the units, when delivered, were not fit for purpose. We will continue to work with SWR to resolve the outstanding problems.”

A spokesperson for SWR responded: “We are working closely with ASLEF and our partners at Alstom on the safe roll-out of our new Arterio fleet, which is set to transform travel on our Reading, Windsor and West London suburban routes through increased capacity and better reliability”.

Obviously windscreen wipers don't block views of signals from moving trains, so make of that what you will.

Daily Echo (Portsmouth local) https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/23...tary-port-base-stores-problem-hit-swr-trains/ January this year:

An Alstom spokesperson said: "Alstom is delighted to report that it has delivered 29 of the contracted-for 10-carriage Arterio trains to South Western Railway and they have been accepted.

"This could not happen if the reported issues were still present."

Again, make of that what you will.

A reminder, not that anyone has forgotten I'm sure, that the trains were ordered in June 2017 with entry into service expected from mid 2019 and full service from December 2019. In 2019 the first announced delay, due to software needing more development, was for one year pushing entry into service to mid-2020:

The first EMU was delivered for testing in June 2020, but in January this year [2022] SWR said it was still waiting for Alstom ‘to supply a train that performs to specification’ before it could begin an testing, crew training and mobilisation.

Problems are understood to include the cab layout, where the production sets differ from the design agreed with drivers’ trade union ASLEF. Audits by Alstom following its purchase of Bombardier Transportation also identified problems with the manufacturing process that were leading to trains being completed with large numbers of defects needing to be rectified at significant cost.

From https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/s...-for-class-701-emu-introduction/62185.article

 

[Sutton in Ant]

If the company refused to negotiate with the unions. Then the company should be fined.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If the company refused to negotiate with the unions. Then the company should be fined.

How reasonable both sides’ demands were must be considered first. These sort of situations tend to find that it’s not just one side specifically to blame.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the company refused to negotiate with the unions. Then the company should be fined.

Fined by who, exactly?

A photo of the revised drivers desk following consultation with ASLEF was in Today's Railways a couple of years ago.

Given that all other iterations of the Aventra have now entered service I simply don't understand why the 701s haven't. It's not like the other classes were without problems and continue to to be.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

The government of the time.

 

[kw12]

SWR has Desiro simulators at its Basingstoke training centre, so some of the training for those units can be done on using simulators instead of the actual units. Similarly there are simulators for at least some of the Aventra classes, for example for the Elizabeth Line 345.

Does SWR have any 701 simulators? Or is all of the 701 training being done on the trains themselves?

 

[norbitonflyer]

[If the company refused to negotiate with the unions. Then the company should be fined by] the government of the time.

And when it's a government-owned company (OLR) that refuses to negotiate?

 

[swr444]

Does SWR have any 701 simulators? Or is all of the 701 training being done on the trains themselves?

There are 701 sims at Clapham yard.

I have heard that around 12 Staines guards are being trained on them for a Windsor service that will either be Staines-Windsor or actually going Waterloo-Windsor

 

[Snow1964]

Does SWR have any 701 simulators? Or is all of the 701 training being done on the trains themselves?

Yes, one of the early Rock Rail charges was for simulators

Haven't got time to plough through the charges, but those early charges were over 3 years ago, so potentially could have been avaliable for over 1100 days (or at least 1000 days if you exclude strike days)

 

[Goldfish62]

I have heard that around 12 Staines guards are being trained on them for a Windsor service that will either be Staines-Windsor or actually going Waterloo-Windsor

I'm sure that will soon be denied on this thread.

 

[amazon1675]

Dear Santa...all I want for Christmas is a 701 in service.I didn't get this last year so could you please try harder ?