Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Dan G]

How many 701s are yet to leave Alstom Derby?

 

[philip simpkin]

I believe it is 701058/9/60 plus 701502/3/26/7/8/9/30. Also 701002/5 are back but have been out.

 

[norbitonflyer]

not continuing as a steady roll out of the 701s but just a flash in the pan

Not somehing you would expect on a 3rd rail unit.........

The stock situation is getting dire now. In 2017 First/MTR inherited enough units to make 43 ten-car trains and 21 eight car ones (plus one spare 4-car unit) - total 602 cars
91x4-car 455 (364 cars)
24x2-car 456 (48 cars)
36x5-car 458 (180 cars)
2x 5-car 707 (10 cars)
- with another 28 class 707s (140 cars) just about ready to enter service.
Those 742 cars (78 trains) were to have been replaced by the end of 2019 by the 750 cars (75 trains) of class 701

Four yaers later, what we actually have running at the end of 2023 is:
74x4 car class 455
27x5-car class 458
2x 5-car class 707

Total 441 cars, 50 trains (14 ten-car, 36 eight-car, plus one spare 5-car unit)

So barely three quarters of what First/MTR) inherited. Compared with what was promised, only two thirds of the number of trains, and only 59% of capacity, as more of them are now 8-car again.

Whether the problem was poor manufacture or poor design (which would include failure to consider the wetware side of the human interface), someone should be accountable for this. Covid can't be the whole reason - the units should all have been in service before anyone had even heard of it.

Once the Merseyrail units have all gone, the 455s will be the oldest electric stock on the network (other than stock operated by Nexus and London Transport)

 

[St. Paddy]

Not somehing you would expect on a 3rd rail unit.........

The stock situation is getting dire now. In 2017 First/MTR inherited enough units to make 43 ten-car trains and 21 eight car ones (plus one spare 4-car unit) - total 602 cars
91x4-car 455 (364 cars)
24x2-car 456 (48 cars)
36x5-car 458 (180 cars)
2x 5-car 707 (10 cars)
- with another 28 class 707s (140 cars) just about ready to enter service.
Those 742 cars (78 trains) were to have been replaced by the end of 2019 by the 750 cars (75 trains) of class 701

Four yaers later, what we actually have running at the end of 2023 is:
74x4 car class 455
27x5-car class 458
2x 5-car class 707

Total 441 cars, 50 trains (14 ten-car, 36 eight-car, plus one spare 5-car unit)

So barely three quarters of what First/MTR) inherited. Compared with what was promised, only two thirds of the number of trains, and only 59% of capacity, as more of them are now 8-car again.

Whether the problem was poor manufacture or poor design (which would include failure to consider the wetware side of the human interface), someone should be accountable for this. Covid can't be the whole reason - the units should all have been in service before anyone had even heard of it.

Once the Merseyrail units have all gone, the 455s will be the oldest electric stock on the network (other than stock operated by Nexus and London Transport)

With the latest passenger usage numbers at Waterloo down from around 100m pre pandemic to 57m, should be coping ok. Could the timetable be tweaked to better support demand

 

[wickham]

Regarding questions above regarding the meaning of DOO(NP) - this means Driver Only Opperation (Non-Passenger), so covers ECS movements and COULD cover other non-passenger movements such as parcels trains, but SWR do not run such things and never have in their time. It MIGHT also cover "Officers Specials", but I am not sure about that.

 

[TEW]

Not all ECS movements though, hence both being used. Some ECS movements have a guard and the way they are operated can be different to ones without.

 

[deepeetw]

With the latest passenger usage numbers at Waterloo down from around 100m pre pandemic to 57m, should be coping ok. Could the timetable be tweaked to better support demand

I’m not sure it’s as simple as that - what’s happening right now is that you need a 10-car / 12-car railway on a couple of days of the week and than a 5/8 car railway on some others. There just isn’t the rolling stock to provide an all 10-car service on all services on the Windsor side during the peaks midweek, for example, but the demand for it is pretty much there.

 

[DelW]

T

With the latest passenger usage numbers at Waterloo down from around 100m pre pandemic to 57m, should be coping ok. Could the timetable be tweaked to better support demand

The question (to which I don't know the answer) is, how much demand has dropped naturally vs. how much is being choked off by the poor timetable, overcrowding and unreliability over the past couple of years. No one would want to be dependent on SWR as it is at present.

 

[43096]

I’m not sure it’s as simple as that - what’s happening right now is that you need a 10-car / 12-car railway on a couple of days of the week and than a 5/8 car railway on some others. There just isn’t the rolling stock to provide an all 10-car service on all services on the Windsor side during the peaks midweek, for example, but the demand for it is pretty much there.

On the Reading line at least, it needs 10-cars pretty much all day, every day.

 

[JonathanH]

On the Reading line at least, it needs 10-cars pretty much all day, every day.

Do you know if there any noticeable difference between loadings of the Reading and Bracknell terminators from Waterloo in the later evening following the change to hourly Reading trains?

 

[43096]

Do you know if there any noticeable difference between loadings of the Reading and Bracknell terminators from Waterloo in the later evening following the change to hourly Reading trains?

I've only used one of the Bracknell terminators occasionally. Can't say I have noticed much difference in loadings, certainly at the London end. I was a bit surprised that there were still plenty on after Ascot, when I thought it might have been empty.

 

[Waterlemon]

Not all ECS movements though, hence both being used. Some ECS movements have a guard and the way they are operated can be different to ones without.

You wont need a Guard on a 701 ECS for the dispatch where platform staff arent available as the driver can do the dispatch themself.

 

[wastedlife]

T
The question (to which I don't know the answer) is, how much demand has dropped naturally vs. how much is being choked off by the poor timetable, overcrowding and unreliability over the past couple of years. No one would want to be dependent on SWR as it is at present.

This. Just from my own commute, SWR has removed the connection from Hampton Court for the fast SUR-WAT at 07:38, 08:08 and 08:38. The evening timetable was always rubbish, although the proposed 6x non-stops to Surbiton that were promised in the 2017 timetable consultation would have addressed that. In addition the 19:23 fast back to Hampton Court, first stop Surbiton, has disappeared never to resurface.

So, if they are going to do that, I might as well travel off peak, save myself a load of cash using Oyster/contactless - oh, and when I make a marginal decision whether to go to the office or work from home, which do you think I will do? I estimate I spend half what I did pre-COVID with SWR, entirely down to their dreadful timetable, and I am one of the people who is ceteris paribus, more keen for a 100% return to office.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The evening timetable was always rubbish

With respect, a comment that many people make who fail to understand the wider picture (as it was in the mid twenty teens and before), Waterloo platforms and line infrastructure at near full capacity. When vocal people representing every route are hounding the industry for 'faster', 'more frequent' services (for their own particular route/service), there have to be compromises in order to provide, 1) as robust an overall timetable as possible, and 2), one which goes some way to meet the aspirations of those who commute on ALL routes, not just any one. For the record I use to commute in the inner/outer suburban area.

the 19:23 fast back to Hampton Court, first stop Surbiton, has disappeared never to resurface.

I have no idea what the present timetable looks like, but this service was introduced specifically to relieve overcrowding on the 19.25 Waterloo-Alton (first stop Surbiton IIRC), which was at one time formed of 5 car 444, but by late 2017 had become 8 car 450. But as with all such initiatives, by then the 19.23 had become well used as well, so had to stay (at that time). As said, I have no involvement now, so can not comment on todays service.

 

[wastedlife]

With respect, a comment that many people make who fail to understand the wider picture (as it was in the mid twenty teens and before), Waterloo platforms and line infrastructure at near full capacity. When vocal people representing every route are hounding the industry for 'faster', 'more frequent' services (for their own particular route/service), there have to be compromises in order to provide, 1) as robust an overall timetable as possible, and 2), one which goes some way to meet the aspirations of those who commute on ALL routes, not just any one. For the record I use to commute in the inner/outer suburban area.

I have no idea what the present timetable looks like, but this service was introduced specifically to relieve overcrowding on the 19.25 Waterloo-Alton (first stop Surbiton IIRC), which was at one time formed of 5 car 444, but by late 2017 had become 8 car 450. But as with all such initiatives, by then the 19.23 had become well used as well, so had to stay (at that time). As said, I have no involvement now, so can not comment on todays service.

No, I fully understand that decisions have to be made. However, as someone who moved house on the basis of there imminently being 6x non-stops to Surbiton at regular ten minute intervals in the evening rush hours, I'm pretty narked that the THD connection to the non-stops remains 20 minutes. Just as, in thinning out the morning fast services from Surbiton, they have decided to remove the fast connection right at the morning peak. It is not a coincidence that two of those three Hampton Courts have had to be strengthened to 10 cars. Realistically, I am going to adjust my working arrangements accordingly, and the impact of that means the railway earns about 50% what it did from me pre-2020.

I don't think (from memory) the 1925 Alton ever called at Surbiton. Before the 1923 being introduced, I remember there was an extraordinary length of time between Surbiton non-stops, I think from 1902 Guildford to 1942 Basingstoke.

 

[H&I]

Any chance of introduction into passenger service this year? I cannot find any sign of 2U91 or 2U92 this week or next week. Thanks.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Any chance of introduction into passenger service this year? I cannot find any sign of 2U91 or 2U92 this week or next week. Thanks.

It did appear on RTT for this coming week, and then vanished again. I think either this week or next is now highly unlikely

 

[Lockwood]

New Year's Eve. Late evening, but not late enough to attract revellers.

Counts as a 2023 introduction.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

New Year's Eve. Late evening, but not late enough to attract revellers.

Counts as a 2023 introduction.

A joke, a suggestion, or something that's actually happening? Your tone isn't clear, haha

 

[MotCO]

Any chance of introduction into passenger service this year? I cannot find any sign of 2U91 or 2U92 this week or next week. Thanks.

I've heard that one will form the 23.59 North Pole circular, via all stations

 

[Lockwood]

A joke, a suggestion, or something that's actually happening? Your tone isn't clear, haha

A cynical prediction.

Or maybe something random at 11am on the first, with the justification that it is still 2023 somewhere in the world!

 

[Goldfish62]

Let's face it, they're not going to be carrying any passengers this year. Logic would tell you that they'll start entering service early next year, but equally I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year not a single one has and SWR have had to substitute certain lines with a bus replacement due to lack of rolling stock because the 458/4s also haven't entered service.

 

[Lockwood]

Perhaps that would appease the PDL complainers?
A coach from Petersfield to Waterloo would have 2+2 seating after all...

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I don't think (from memory) the 1925 Alton ever called at Surbiton.

To be fair I may have got my time lines slightly out of context? The 1925 did call Surbiton, but the latest ref I have is a Station Working book from 1993, when it was Surbiton, thence Walton and limited stop to Woking etc. Suspect this changed with the 2004 recast, although I do not have any timetable detail for that or for a number of years afterwards. By the time of the station working books for the mid 20 teens, the 1925 was Clapham (pick up only) thence Woking, and although I remember the introduction of the 1923 (8-455 as it originally was) this may have been more like 2007 or so, but can not be sure now.

I think the situation was that when an outer suburban service (Alton/Basingstoke etc) could be pathed to stop at Surbiton in the p.m. peak and demand was seen to need same, it would have been done, if any such slowing of a Down Main Fast service could have been achieved without knocking on to several other Down Main Fast services behind. The problem with the evening peak as I touched on above, the DMF was as good as at saturation point, 2 minute headways being the norm, with a handful of 2 and a half minute HW's in the mix, and any driver who has driven that route and had to swing over to the DS London end of Surbiton will tell you, they will have sighted the first restrictive aspect (double yellow) before passing Berrylands, so will have already 'shut off' by that point and been in coasting mode ready to slow for the DF to DS crossing. May seem a minor point in itself, but that alone will impact on following DF trains, hence Surbiton may have been seen to be poorly served (by non stop services from/to Waterloo) during some busier parts of the day. The same applied to Woking, where again , certain Exeter, Portsmouth trains etc didn't call in the peaks, but did off peak.

PS: sorry, this has wandered OT.

 

[ScotGG]

T
The question (to which I don't know the answer) is, how much demand has dropped naturally vs. how much is being choked off by the poor timetable, overcrowding and unreliability over the past couple of years. No one would want to be dependent on SWR as it is at present.

We can look at TfL recovery within London (generally around 90 per cent on DLR and tube plus 100 per cent on LO even with the Elizabeth line now running) to see it's far higher than SWR, so it's likely timetable reductions and fewer trains are choking demand. See also other third rail operators south of the Thames.

It doesn't help that they don't easily separate suburban from long distance but when we have seen numbers, passenger growth in London falls behind TfL which points to demand being suppressed.

 

[JonathanH]

It doesn't help that they don't easily separate suburban from long distance but when we have seen numbers, passenger growth in London falls behind TfL which points to demand being suppressed.

The reality is that the parts of London that SWR serve are, in general, more affluent than those which TfL serve, and therefore more likely to be places where people don't have to go to their workplace every day.

 

[DCtrains]

Do you know if there any noticeable difference between loadings of the Reading and Bracknell terminators from Waterloo in the later evening following the change to hourly Reading trains?

Readings are still very much half-hourly

I last heard the soft launch was to begin on the 19th and that the statement from the RMT meant everything was a go. Has something else happened that I haven’t noticed/heard about?

 

[JonathanH]

Readings are still very much half-hourly

Until 2020 yes. However, the 2050, 2150 and 2250 from Waterloo terminate at Bracknell on weekdays evenings, leaving Wokingham and the stations to Reading with an hourly late evening service.

Strangely, Reading is very much half hourly all day on both Saturday and Sunday, even into the later evening.

 

[The_Train]

However, the 2050, 2150 and 2250

These are also valid predictions for the year that these units will enter service

 

[Class93]

Readings are still very much half-hourly

I last heard the soft launch was to begin on the 19th and that the statement from the RMT meant everything was a go. Has something else happened that I haven’t noticed/heard about?

Certainly not, plenty of Bracknell terminators.