Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder if a mixed seating layout like on the 345 would have been best, rather than entirely transverse. (Even the 455s had a few sections of longitudinal!)

For what benefit?

 

[markle]

And the idea that two average sized people can’t fit into the seats is ludicrous anyway.

As someone who is average sized I certainly found it challenging to sit on a window seat without spilling onto the adjacent seat, and retain comfortable use of my arm that was adjacent to the window

Funny to think that commenters in this thread oppose longitudinal seating because 701s will be used for Reading services but think that the provided seating is OK as "it'll only be used for short commuter services"

 

[norbitonflyer]

And the idea that two average sized people can’t fit into the seats is ludicrous anyway.

I may be a bit overweight, but the excess is in front of me - my width across the hips (which is what is relevant here) is not unusual. But sitting in a window seat I was aware that part of me was encroaching on the next seat.

 

[Pete_uk]

So, what year will the next service be?..

 

[Recessio]

For what benefit?

More capacity on busy metro routes, but still having transverse seating for those passengers on longer distance journeys. It seems to work very well for TfL on the S8 and 345 for Metropolitan and Elizabeth lines.

Funny to think that commenters in this thread oppose longitudinal seating because 701s will be used for Reading services but think that the provided seating is OK as "it'll only be used for short commuter services"

Exactly - can't have it both ways. That's why I think a mixed layout would be best.

Either way I'm just glad that these units are finally one step closer to passenger service. As much as I like the 455s, they're long overdue to become baked bean tins.

 

[H&I]

For those who wish to travel on a Class 701, I would recommend checking Realtime Trains tomorrow morning to see if 2U91 gets activated.

Realtime Trains | 2U91 1025 London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside | 10/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2U91 1025 departure from London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside on 10/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43066]

As someone who is average sized I certainly found it challenging to sit on a window seat without spilling onto the adjacent seat, and retain comfortable use of my arm that was adjacent to the window

I’m 6”3 and broad shouldered, and generally find 2+2 on modern stock fine (again using 700s and 707s for reference). 2+3 (eg networkers) is utterly useless with tiny gangways and the middle of three seats generally unusable if you have three adults wanting to sit abreast.

Exactly - can't have it both ways. That's why I think a mixed layout would be best.

I’d favour 2+2 and possibly 2+1, all transverse on stock like this. There’s a tipping point between where stock is metro focussed enough to justify transverse and I’d suggest EL is the outer limit.

It would be good to know what average journey times are on SWR metro and EL - I’d hazard a guess that EL will be shorter.

 

[class387]

Did Windsor and back on it today - great to finally see them in service. One complaint though is the very thick heating duct taking up most of the footwell on the window seat making it quite difficult to sit with your feet straight in front of you (the contoured seat cushions then make it hard to spread out diagonally instead).

I was on a 730 home, which for some reason despite also being a 2+2 seated Aventra without seat spacers, seems to have a narrower, more profiled heating duct that doesn't intrude into the footwell? Is there any reason why this wasn't specified on the 701?

 

[cactustwirly]

I’m 6”3 and broad shouldered, and generally find 2+2 on modern stock fine (again using 700s and 707s for reference). 2+3 (eg networkers) is utterly useless with tiny gangways and the middle of three seats genuinely unusable.



I’d favour 2+2 and possibly 2+1 all transverse. There’s a tipping point between where stock is metro focussed enough to justify transverse and I’d suggest EL is the outer limit.

It would be good to know what average journey times are on SWR metro and EL - I’d hazard a guess that EL will be shorter.

Fairly similar I would imagine.
Maidenhead and Twyford on EL are a similar time to Windsor and Dorking. Reading on SWR is 90 minutes so that would push the average out

 

[H&I]

Fairly similar I would imagine.
Maidenhead and Twyford on EL are a similar time to Windsor and Dorking. Reading on SWR is 90 minutes so that would push the average out

How many people travel all the way from Reading to London Waterloo with SWR?

 

[43066]

Fairly similar I would imagine.
Maidenhead and Twyford on EL are a similar time to Windsor and Dorking. Reading on SWR is 90 minutes so that would push the average out

Indeed. My thinking was that SWR will be mostly people going into and out of Waterloo from the suburbs, so scope for longer journeys on average than the EL, which has many users who treat it like a tube through the central core.

How many people travel all the way from Reading to London Waterloo with SWR?

Not many at all I suspect.

 

[modernrail]

Well that’s true, but that’s why you put in fewer of them! Wide aisles is a strange thing to be complaining about on a train performing the role these will be.

Compare the seating arrangements in the 700s with that of the Networkers, for example.

Whilst I see the wide aisle theory it hasn’t worked. They might have just about got away with it if they maxed out room for your window-side foot on the window seat but on lots of modern trains this seems to be less good not better than previous trains. The result is that window passenger ends up contorted in and the aisle passenger ends up with 1 cheek on the seat and legs into the gangway.

They have missed a trick as far as I am concerned. Large areas of 2+1 (or even 2+ 0) in half each carriage with spaced 2+2 in the other half would be loads better.

In the peak you end up with the same ish standing capacity (maybe more?). In the off peak and at weekends everybody gets a better journey. Seated passengers have space, The 2+1 becomes perfect for someone/a family with a buggy or with large luggage.

All that happens on Thameslink off peak now is that the vast majority of double seats are taken by one person, people tend to choose to stand rather than share a double and bikes, buggies and bags cluster around the doors rather than being spread out slowing down access and egress.

I have noticed that Thameslink trains are the only ones where people seem to often choose the aisle not window seat off peak.

Whilst leisure/off-peak travel seems have gone up on the regional, intercity and regional intercity routes the same does not feel to be true on off peak and weekend London commuter. The above approach would offer a better product enticing more people to put the whole of their bum on a train seat rather than their car.

 

[Kite159]

All that happens on Thameslink now is that the vast majority of double seats are taken by one person, people tend to choose to stand rather than share a double and bikes, buggies and bags cluster around the doors rather than being spread out slowing down access and egress.

I've noticed similar, on trains with seats slammed up against each other with no spacers some passengers prefer to stand than to sit next to someone else, especially if they are larger than average in width. (at least if you had spacers it gives a little extra space between the two seats, even without an armrest which is a useful guard against people spread)

Similar to the 3+2 seated units where bays of 6 will tend to have the middle seat left until the very end with passengers preferring to stand. At least the wide aisles will allow passengers easier to flow from busy sections of the train to areas where it's quieter.

For the 701s there will be some medium journeys, i.e. Shepperton to Waterloo at just under an hour, Wokingham/Bracknell - London, even those living in the likes of Clandon on the Guildford services. As well as shorter journeys within London (i.e. Wimbledon/Twickenham - Vauxhall/Waterloo)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

For the 701s there will be some medium journeys, i.e. Shepperton to Waterloo at just under an hour, Wokingham/Bracknell - London, even those living in the likes of Clandon on the Guildford services. As well as shorter journeys within London (i.e. Wimbledon/Twickenham - Vauxhall/Waterloo)

Anyone travelling from Wokingham to London who's that fussed about the comfort or speed of the trains can always get a ticket to Reading and buy a GWR ticket from there.

EG there's an 1323 to Waterloo which gets in at 1434, but by taking the Reading train just five minutes before, they can comfortably change to the ex-Cheltenham and be in London for 1358. Bound to be more expensive, but the faster/more comfortable options in transport always are.

 

[Kite159]

Anyone travelling from Wokingham to London who's that fussed about the comfort or speed of the trains can always get a ticket to Reading and buy a GWR ticket from there.

EG there's an 1323 to Waterloo which gets in at 1434, but by taking the Reading train just five minutes before, they can comfortably change to the ex-Cheltenham and be in London for 1358.

And pay extra for going via Reading. You could argue that the person in Clandon could save time by buying to Guildford to change for a faster service to London but at a higher cost.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And pay extra for going via Reading. You could argue that the person in Clandon could save time by buying to Guildford to change for a faster service to London but at a higher cost.

Exactly. And why shouldn't that be the case? You wouldn't expect customers travelling on SE via HS1 to pay the same as those travelling on conventional Charing Cross trains.

Bound to be more expensive, but the faster/more comfortable options in transport always are.

Hence this

 

[Kite159]

Exactly. And why shouldn't that be the case? You wouldn't expect customers travelling on SE via HS1 to pay the same as those travelling on conventional Charing Cross trains.


Hence this

HS1 vs 'non High Speed' isn't really a fair comparison. More like someone from Twyford buying a "via Reading" ticket to travel to London on a faster train than taking the 387 semi-fast or Lizzy line stopper. Or plenty of other cases where passengers can save time by going backwards before going forward if their station is served only by stoppers and by going backwards they can board (or attempt to board in some cases) a fast train which overtakes the stopper. For example Hook.

 

[43066]

They have missed a trick as far as I am concerned. Large areas of 2+1 (or even 2+ 0) in half each carriage with spaced 2+2 in the other half would be loads better.

Agreed there’s a case for more 2+1 (perhaps they can be adapted to that in future).

All that happens on Thameslink off peak now is that the vast majority of double seats are taken by one person, people tend to choose to stand rather than share a double and bikes, buggies and bags cluster around the doors rather than being spread out slowing down access and egress.

Off peak people will always spread out, whatever the layout, but when the trains are crush loaded every 2+2 seat will be taken with the wide gangway and large areas by the doors holding the majority.

The difference the 700s made compared to the 3+2 319s they replaced was night and day. Similarly a 10 class 376 or 701 is a *far* better crowd buster than a 3+2 12 car networker.

(I do accept the 701s won’t make such a difference on SWR as the refurbished 455s they’re replacing were already very well optimised seating wise).

Whilst leisure/off-peak travel seems have gone up on the regional, intercity and regional intercity routes the same does not feel to be true on off peak and weekend London commuter. The above approach would offer a better product enticing more people to put the whole of their bum on a train seat rather than their car.

That’s the case now, but commuter numbers will be above where they were in 2019 in a few short years by population growth alone, even if current WFH levels remain (which they won’t) and these trains are intended to remain in service for the next 30+ years. If anything I hope it’s possible to remove seats in future as passenger numbers rise.

I've noticed similar, on trains with seats slammed up against each other with no spacers some passengers prefer to stand than to sit next to someone else, especially if they are larger than average in width. (at least if you had spacers it gives a little extra space between the two seats, even without an armrest which is a useful guard against people spread)

Again, not when it’s crush loaded. Spacers make seated passengers more comfortable but eat into standing space. I have witnessed the benefits of a wide asile first hand during the recent GTR industrial action when 700s have been back to 2019 (and above) crush loading through the core. I appreciate it isn’t something many of us have been used to seeing over the past three years, but that isn’t reflective, and this generation of trains are necessarily intended to cater for far higher numbers than are currently travelling.

 

[modernrail]

Have the 701’s got the utterly ridiculous enormous ducting that the Thameslink trains have that makes the compressed 2+2 format much worse than they need to be?

 

[class387]

Have the 701’s got the utterly ridiculous enormous ducting that the Thameslink trains have that makes the compressed 2+2 format much worse than they need to be?

Yes, and interestingly the otherwise very similar Class 730s don't.

 

[Robski_]

Yes, and interestingly the otherwise very similar Class 730s don't.

The Class 730's have underfloor heating, whereas I don't think the 701's do?

 

[Meerkat]

Apologies for not re-Reading the whole thread but did the bio-reactor toilets make it into the production versions? If so have they actually been proven elsewhere, and are they essential for the timetable/stabling - ie if they don’t last as long as claimed will there be a lot of locked out loos waiting until they get to the weekly emptying?

 

[class387]

The Class 730's have underfloor heating, whereas I don't think the 701's do?

That's what I thought initially, but I searched this thread and apparently some old specification documents suggest they do... That could be wrong though.

 

[cactustwirly]

Indeed. My thinking was that SWR will be mostly people going into and out of Waterloo from the suburbs, so scope for longer journeys on average than the EL, which has many users who treat it like a tube through the central core.



Not many at all I suspect.

However Winnersh (basically a suburb of Reading) to Waterloo, or Reading to Clapham Junction are reasonably busy flows

 

[D365]

Apologies for not re-Reading the whole thread but did the bio-reactor toilets make it into the production versions? If so have they actually been proven elsewhere, and are they essential for the timetable/stabling - ie if they don’t last as long as claimed will there be a lot of locked out loos waiting until they get to the weekly emptying?

I understand yes. As long as the toilets are ’operated’ routinely, before and after each unit enters service, the bio-reactor facility claims to significantly reduce the required frequency for emptying. I believe some Class 375 subclasses are being retrofitted?

 

[Mikey C]

Again, not when it’s crush loaded. Spacers make seated passengers more comfortable but eat into standing space. I have witnessed the benefits of a wide asile first hand during the recent GTR industrial action when 700s have been back to 2019 (and above) crush loading through the core. I appreciate it isn’t something many of us have been used to seeing over the past three years, but that isn’t reflective, and this generation of trains are necessarily intended to cater for far higher numbers than are currently travelling.

Should trains really be designed to cope with such extreme crush loading though, at the expense of the other 99.9% of time they are in service, when there aren't vast numbers of people standing nose to nose along the train?

The 376s still have plenty of standing space and a decently wide aisle, but the spacing of the seats makes them more usable.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's what I thought initially, but I searched this thread and apparently some old specification documents suggest they do... That could be wrong though.

They have been quoted as having underfloor heating.

 

[TEW]

Apologies for not re-Reading the whole thread but did the bio-reactor toilets make it into the production versions? If so have they actually been proven elsewhere, and are they essential for the timetable/stabling - ie if they don’t last as long as claimed will there be a lot of locked out loos waiting until they get to the weekly emptying?

I'm not aware of much additional CET equipment being fitted, so I imagine it is fairly essential that it works for toilet availability.

 

[Benjwri]

How many people travel all the way from Reading to London Waterloo with SWR?

2021/22 estimates were 32546, although that is based on travel surveys from before Covid to split London Terminal tickets, nothing compared to travel to Paddington but still a significant number. However 13923 travel to Clapham Junction alongside that, 12056 to Staines (50 minutes), 11567 to Twickenham (1 hour), 10591 to Feltham (55 minutes), 8901 to Richmond (1hr 5 mins). That is a fairly significant amount.

Anyone travelling from Wokingham to London who's that fussed about the comfort or speed of the trains can always get a ticket to Reading and buy a GWR ticket from there.

EG there's an 1323 to Waterloo which gets in at 1434, but by taking the Reading train just five minutes before, they can comfortably change to the ex-Cheltenham and be in London for 1358. Bound to be more expensive, but the faster/more comfortable options in transport always are.

That is all good in many examples, but any of the ones I have mentioned above, as soon as you get closer than Clapham you are paying significantly extra and the journey is far far slower.

 

[WarrenTManager]

I'm not aware of much additional CET equipment being fitted, so I imagine it is fairly essential that it works for toilet availability.

Using the photo kindly posted on page 247 but zoomed, the new CET equipment is the orange equipment cases. Vogelsang kit.

They have been quoted as having underfloor heating.

They have underfloor heating