Class 710 LO

[Mikey C]

Yes. There’s a sort of precedent in SWT keeping two 3 car Mk 1 EMUs to run alternately on the Lymington Branch. They didn’t last too long as it turned out.

Or the Chiltern bubblecars

 

[Meerkat]

Looking at google maps i see a bit of an issue using 230s - there doesn’t appear to be any road access to be able to maintain them on the route.

 

[PeterC]

Looking at google maps i see a bit of an issue using 230s - there doesn’t appear to be any road access to be able to maintain them on the route.

This is getting into the "speculative ideas" area but a couple of comments in the hope that my post will be moved with any other speculative ones.

1. Heretical idea regarding using a 230. Cut the connection at Romford, connect the line to Upminster depot and maintain it there.

2. Converting to District Line, and idea that occurred to me over 50 years ago. There are at least 2 pedestrian level crossings on the line. I have also been told that a new sub station would be needed at the Romford end.

3. Tram / light rail conversion. This was discussed at length on District Dave a few years ago. Feasible as part of a wider scheme but not really as a stand alone. (I would have street running along Victoria Road rather than running into platform 1)

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at google maps i see a bit of an issue using 230s - there doesn’t appear to be any road access to be able to maintain them on the route.

That isn’t a requirement. It’s just one of Vivarail’s supposed selling points.

 

[TRAX]

Looking at google maps i see a bit of an issue using 230s - there doesn’t appear to be any road access to be able to maintain them on the route.

I don’t understand ?

 

[PeterC]

I don’t understand ?

The reference was to the Romford to Upminster branch which is almost entirely in cutting or on viaduct. I assume the point is that there is no location on the branch where a Vivarail engineer can park a van with spares and equipment close to a unit.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t understand ?

I suspect it’s referring to Vivarail’s sales pitch, where they made a big deal out of the fact that they could be maintained by a man in a white van. I don’t think they meant it was compulsory...

 

[Meerkat]

But without maintaining them on site the advantage of using 230s over 315s begin to disappear.

 

[87015]

But without maintaining them on site the advantage of using 230s over 315s begin to disappear.

Where will you maintain a 315 and with what staff though? Ilford passes to Bombardier who won’t support them...

 

[delticdave]

This is getting into the "speculative ideas" area but a couple of comments in the hope that my post will be moved with any other speculative ones.

1. Heretical idea regarding using a 230. Cut the connection at Romford, connect the line to Upminster depot and maintain it there.

2. Converting to District Line, and idea that occurred to me over 50 years ago. There are at least 2 pedestrian level crossings on the line. I have also been told that a new sub station would be needed at the Romford end.

3. Tram / light rail conversion. This was discussed at length on District Dave a few years ago. Feasible as part of a wider scheme but not really as a stand alone. (I would have street running along Victoria Road rather than running into platform 1)

Connecting Platform 6 to the LIL depot looks to be quite simple, remove buffer stop(S?) & lay a few yards of track.
ISTR that road vehicle access to Upminster depot wouldn't be difficult & that the northern-most roads in the depot didn't have have live conductor rails.

Would approx. 3 'ish miles of track, limited to 30 mph (the current speed limit) really require a Romford sub-station?

Tram conversion, if using street running = too long a journey time, the current 8 minute trip makes a single unit, 1/2 hourly service quite reliable.

A 230 would be the most sensible option, & if a charging rail could be laid into platform 6, then the battery option could be a possibility.

 

[700007]

Guys this thread, as interesting as the last several comments have been, it is becoming off topic. Can we stick to the discussion of 710s and then a new thread made for choice of unit to run the Romminster shuttle and whether a 230, 315 or 710 is most suited and what TOC.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Guys this thread, as interesting as the last several comments have been, it is becoming off topic. Can we stick to the discussion of 710s and then a new thread made for choice of unit to run the Romminster shuttle and whether a 230, 315 or 710 is most suited and what TOC.

Well said, beat me to it. We want to know about 710s on GOBLIN etc.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The Wikipedia page for the 710 is lacking a photo of one in the flesh. If anyone has a photo of a 710 they are happy to be used as the article photo, post it on a site such a Flickr and I will add it to Wikipedia.

 

[paddyb6]

Is there any confirmations on when the 710s will enter service?

 

[700007]

Certainly not this side of the year....

 

[Railperf]

Certainly not this side of the year....

So it will be bustitutions on the Goblin from January then?

 

[HLE]

Probably not, another extension to the 172 lease is probably likely

 

[Goldfish62]

Is there any confirmations on when the 710s will enter service?

Officially Christmas Eve, realistically, as others have suggested, not this year

 

[plcd1]

Officially Christmas Eve, realistically, as others have suggested, not this year

Eh? The eastern end of the GOBLIN is shut for a week, including 24 December, because of engineering works. If someone is saying Christmas Eve is some sort of start date then they're having a joke surely? Not much point running 4 car EMUs from S Tottenham to Gospel Oak when the major flows are east of Blackhorse Road. I still can't see that Bombardier will have handed over several trains by then and ARL would have trained enough drivers. If 1 train is handed over by Bombardier during December, having achieved its fault free mileage, I will be astonished.

The 172's sublease expires on 9 December (this is confirmed in a recent Mayoral Answer). TfL have not said if they have secured an extension to this or not. If not then WM Trains can legally transfer the trains away and it's buses for everyone from next week. We are a less than a week from the service potentially vanishing completely and not a clear public statement from anyone.

 

[class303]

710265 out running on the Lea Valley lines last night.

https://twitter.com/cmpd_date/status/1070446431381741569

 

[Goldfish62]

Eh? The eastern end of the GOBLIN is shut for a week, including 24 December, because of engineering works. If someone is saying Christmas Eve is some sort of start date then they're having a joke surely? Not much point running 4 car EMUs from S Tottenham to Gospel Oak when the major flows are east of Blackhorse Road. I still can't see that Bombardier will have handed over several trains by then and ARL would have trained enough drivers. If 1 train is handed over by Bombardier during December, having achieved its fault free mileage, I will be astonished.

The 172's sublease expires on 9 December (this is confirmed in a recent Mayoral Answer). TfL have not said if they have secured an extension to this or not. If not then WM Trains can legally transfer the trains away and it's buses for everyone from next week. We are a less than a week from the service potentially vanishing completely and not a clear public statement from anyone.

The official date is Christmas Eve. I'm not saying that's when anyone expects it to actually happen. Also that date is for the first train only.

 

[samuelmorris]

Probably not, another extension to the 172 lease is probably likely

If that was their intention I'm not sure two units would have been sent away already.

 

[Mordac]

The official date is Christmas Eve. I'm not saying that's when anyone expects it to actually happen. Also that date is for the first train only.

Will Santa Claus be driving?

 

[700007]

Will Santa Claus be driving?

To my understanding, according to the BGORUG meeting minutes with TfL published on their website:

The lease has been extended into the New Year for the 172s and the final date seems to be some time in March 2019.

The trains will gradually be going off lease one by one (as now) between January and March.

What if end of March comes and there is not enough progress?

 

[HLE]

If that was their intention I'm not sure two units would have been sent away already.

No it makes sense. Send two in for overhaul and refurb, they can then be moved up here so crew training can finally commence. Then, when the rest are ready to be cascaded there's little time lost with crew training and introduction can happen on various routes pretty much straightaway. I would hope they are first introduced on the Nuneaton and Leamington branches as that's where the soon to be cascaded 153's operate alone.

As it stands those 172's that have been withdrawn have just gone to Ilford for refurb. Not aware they've been sent up here yet. That's the baffling part. No use to WMT or those left behind on the Goblin

 

[HLE]

To my understanding, according to the BGORUG meeting minutes with TfL published on their website:

The lease has been extended into the New Year for the 172s and the final date seems to be some time in March 2019.

The trains will gradually be going off lease one by one (as now) between January and March.

What if end of March comes and there is not enough progress?

Another lease extension!!

 

[samuelmorris]

No it makes sense. Send two in for overhaul and refurb, they can then be moved up here so crew training can finally commence. Then, when the rest are ready to be cascaded there's little time lost with crew training and introduction can happen on various routes pretty much straightaway. I would hope they are first introduced on the Nuneaton and Leamington branches as that's where the soon to be cascaded 153's operate alone.

As it stands those 172's that have been withdrawn have just gone to Ilford for refurb. Not aware they've been sent up here yet. That's the baffling part. No use to WMT or those left behind on the Goblin

I know what you mean but it still makes no sense to me. If it's a gradual withdrawal between January and March, by February presumably there'll only be 3 or 4 units left in service, with the first 710 still months away. There's no point offering such a minimal service, they may as well just send all the units off lease and go back to using buses full time, that's how the Goblin has operated for a large part of the last few years, it's not as if there's no precedent for it.

 

[Aictos]

No it makes sense. Send two in for overhaul and refurb, they can then be moved up here so crew training can finally commence. Then, when the rest are ready to be cascaded there's little time lost with crew training and introduction can happen on various routes pretty much straightaway. I would hope they are first introduced on the Nuneaton and Leamington branches as that's where the soon to be cascaded 153's operate alone.

As it stands those 172's that have been withdrawn have just gone to Ilford for refurb. Not aware they've been sent up here yet. That's the baffling part. No use to WMT or those left behind on the Goblin

Indeed the sooner they become available for crew training the better as then when the rest of the fleet arrives they can enter service more or less straight away.

As to the Nuneaton and Leamington branches I have no idea on how busy they can be as I'm not a regular user of them but just by operating a single Class 172 instead of the single Class 153 is a 100% increase in capacity which by the sound of discussion here is sorely needed.

My question regarding the Class 172s is will the ex LO fleet be used on specific routes or will they be used as part of a mix fleet so could turn up on any existing Class 172 operated service etc?

As to the 710s, one would hope they enter service in time for the Class 172s to go off lease but I would expect a rail replacement service to operate until the entire fleet is in place which isn't ideal but it would still provide a service for users of the line.

 

[sufian123]

Indeed the sooner they become available for crew training the better as then when the rest of the fleet arrives they can enter service more or less straight away.

As to the Nuneaton and Leamington branches I have no idea on how busy they can be as I'm not a regular user of them but just by operating a single Class 172 instead of the single Class 153 is a 100% increase in capacity which by the sound of discussion here is sorely needed.

My question regarding the Class 172s is will the ex LO fleet be used on specific routes or will they be used as part of a mix fleet so could turn up on any existing Class 172 operated service etc?

As to the 710s, one would hope they enter service in time for the Class 172s to go off lease but I would expect a rail replacement service to operate until the entire fleet is in place which isn't ideal but it would still provide a service for users of the line.

I think class 172s will help out with existing fleets as well. As the 8 class 153s set to transfer to EastMidlands Trains

 

[HLE]

172's would just be a conversion for the crew that currently sign them, no biggie so expect to see them in service on those routes currently served by 172's pretty much as soon as they arrive, assuming the overhauls have been done.

They're badly needed on the Nuneaton & Leamington branches. The Leamington branch although only operating as a shuttle for six months has seen a decent increase in usage meaning the single 153 is now full on certain trips. Nuneaton - people crammed on in every gap available during the peaks and matchdays, extra effort is made to get everyone on as the frequency is only one an hour. Although a 2 car will still see services full and standing

The ex LO 172 will more than likely be the only 172's operating those branches due to differences in the cabs from the current fleet