Class 710 LO

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by AlanFry1, 23 Apr 2017.

  1. Chris125

    Chris125 Established Member

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    For services with frequent stops and short journeys it makes sense to have more standing room - the extra space makes it easier for people to get off a busy train and more inclined to move down the carriage to make way for others.
     
  2. 47421

    47421 Member

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    someone on LondonReconnections called it hornbyism. There is a detailed discussion of alternative options here

    http://barking-gospeloak.org.uk/documents/20181119_stock_crisis_meeting.pdf

    In summary:

    - hire in electrostars with the necessary CCTV, but would require co-operation of other TOCs with little incentive for them to do so, suggests most likely is 387/3s from c2c at weekends only
    - some 378s shortened to 4 car temporarily
    - introduce non CCTV EMUs and reintroduce guards

    No easy options as set out in that crisis meeting note
     
  3. HLE

    HLE Established Member

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    I doubt they'll do that. If the first 710 is being used to train up the DI's and drivers then entry into service won't be far off and certainly won't justify the cost of hire in's on a temporary basis
     
  4. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Carriages are all very well, but where are the driving motor cars coming from? Ya know, the ones with cabs?

    Because that can happen quickly.
     
  5. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I don't think the shortening is to create extra units out of, it's just simply so that the units are short enough fit the platforms on the Goblin. They would still be borrowing said units from the other LO routes.
     
  6. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Ah, I guess that makes more sense. Seems unfair to trade one set of mystery for another though, the ELL branches are packed to the rafters during the peak hours too! Part of the 710 order is us getting more trains via cascade!
     
  7. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    It does seem a little odd, but perhaps they're taking a leaf out of the 'share the pain' book from TfW!
    After all, the 16tph frequency with 5-car trains in the ELL core being slightly reduced is probably less disastrous than ending up with 1tph for a 2-car DMU on the Goblin.

    I'm not all that convinced the above will actually happen anyway to be honest, the responses documented in those meeting minutes are pretty vague and non-committal, but we'll see.
     
  8. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    The problem is that reducing the 16tph in the core means reducing one or more of the branches from 4tph to 3tph, which is as bad as we're seeing on the GOBLIN when a train fails. Personally, I'd put money on no random trains ending up on the GOBLIN before the 710s finally squeak their way in to service. Much more likely it'll continue to be bustituted.
     
  9. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    You're right of course, but from my experience, the 5-car 378s aren't quite as badly crush loaded as the 2-car 172s, particularly since a fair volume of the passengers that would be affected by a reduction on one of the branches can still use one of the other services (e.g. in the core there are 3 other options, as far as Sydenham there is still one alternative that could remain 4tph). I think this is a logical place to look in a crisis. Far more likely, however, is as you say, bustitution, which is already happening in the form of a supplementary service. My expectation is that the rail service will be ramped down and the bus service ramped up until say April, by which time either the 710s will have been introduced or, more likely, the route will revert to being fully bus-operated again for the remaining few weeks (hopefully not months!) before 710s start seeing passenger service.
     
  10. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Do the GOBLIN have to use dual-voltage units all the time, or could an AC unit from a different depot come in as a substitute?
     
  11. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

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    An AC unit from a different depot isn't gonna happen, as the 172s (and 710s) both have DOO cameras. So do the 378s, but all 378/2 NLL/WLL/Watford DC diagrams use 3rd rail for all or part of their journey, so their DV capability is needed. 317s and 315s can't be used as they don't have DOO cameras, despite being AC only.
     
  12. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I read this as a 'once in service' query, quite possibly wrongly, but I'd also be curious to know if an AC only 710 from Ilford could cover the Goblin if a dual-voltage unit was unavailable, especially if there's more of the former to go around. I suppose the question is, how easily can I get there?
     
  13. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    Quite easy Ilford - Liverpool Street - Forest Gate Junction - Barking or Ilford - Gas Factory Loop - Barking.

    The first option allows you to access Platforms 1 or 7 while the second option allows you to access Platforms 7 or 8 so really depends on what paths are available but it's not too difficult to get from Ilford to Barking.
     
  14. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    No route knowledge though. AC unit 114 now at Willesden.
     
  15. Aictos

    Aictos On Moderation

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    Not such a issue when you have drivers who can route conduct over the area where the LO drivers don't sign who don't have to work for LO usually in this case a driver from one of the freight operators or even ask the Rail Operations Group as well.

    So no, it's not such a big deal but can be costly hiring in drivers to route conduct.
     
  16. theking

    theking Member

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    Why would they waste all that time sending an ac unit over? route conducting? Freight drivers? Just for the goblin and then what happens if the unit from ilford is required for the anglias

    If it came to it they would just stick a 378 on the dc and use the 710 from there to the goblin.
     
  17. KC1

    KC1 Member

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    I think people are going to have a shock when those huge comfy, pretty much long distance seats in the 317s are replaced with longitudinal hard as a rock seating in the 710s. Just left one at chingford and it was one of my more pleasant journeys. Personally, the 710s can take as long as they want to be introduced.
     
  18. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    They won't be entering service on the West Anglia lines for a little while the first priority is the Gospel Oak-Barking and then the Euston-Watford Junction so you'll still have 315's and the wonderful 317's for a while longer ;)
     
  19. BlyRF

    BlyRF Member

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    Not having heard of any news for a while I began to venture on twitter for updates and seems now that a single 4 car class 378 will hopefully be running as a temp replacement for when some of the 172s go off lease.

    But even so any concrete updates on the 710 availability?
     
  20. 700007

    700007 Member

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    Indeed 378232 has been shortened to 4 cars to run temporarily on this line.
     
  21. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Do they have spare 378s at the moment or does this mean cancelled diagrams on the NLL or Watford-DC?
     
  22. BlyRF

    BlyRF Member

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    Can't wait to ride one at least, always wondered about a 378 traction on the goblin.
     
  23. BlyRF

    BlyRF Member

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    Think they must've pulled one out the NNL/WDC as there are no spares.
     
  24. Ethano92

    Ethano92 Member

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    Surely NLL or do Watford DC trains also have a pantograph? Either way it's funny because everytime anyone suggested using another train on the line they were shut down instantly going on about driver training issues etc but now it's apparently happening. God must know what other Aventura buyers are thinking, I for one am slightly disappointed I won't be on a 701 for quite some time after it was scheduled by the looks of it.
     
  25. theking

    theking Member

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    Bit different using a class 378 that are already LO than far fetched ideas of class 315 with tfl rail drivers and lo conductor drivers oh and fitting platform edge mirrors and monitors for non doo stock.

    Can't see where they are going to get the trains from bar stopping the refreshes of the 378/1's and that's only one train as all routes in the peak are over capacity as it is that and the cost of modifying the 378's tfl shoild just bite the bullet and start the buses if the diesels go.
     
  26. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    37 out of the 57 Class 378s are dual voltage, which includes all the NLL/WLL/DC trains, plus quite a few of the ELL trains.
     
  27. plcd1

    plcd1 Member

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    Last I read was that the 710s have 20 known faults requiring a fix. I assume Bombardier are trying to fix those before attempting to re-accumulate "fault free" mileage. AIUI there have been no recent test runs of class 710s. I also assume that Bombardier are still prioritising fixes for Crossrail's class 345s over the 710s because Crossrail is the more important project.

    I think the conversion of a 378 to four car formation is an act of near desperation to try to cover for the planned phased removal of 172s from Jan onwards. However there cannot be enough spare 378s to replace all the 172s so we are still headed for a mess on the GOBLIN. It is not tenable to cut the frequency down to x30 mins even if you have 1 378 running to offer more capacity. It's also not tenable, IMO, for TfL to start hacking the timetables on other LO routes. All that would do is spread the misery from one route to more of them thus risking a larger reputational fall out for TfL. I really cannot see them opting to inflict more damage on themselves. At present the mess is confined to one not very well known route in NE London which the media have little clue about. Bombardier really need to sort themselves out but no comment I've seen offers any early prospects of 710s in service - most people are now suggesting March or April by which time the GOBLIN will have no rail service as the 172s will have gone. And to think the contract envisaged the first 710s in service 1 year ago. :rolleyes:
     
  28. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    I don't think so. Trimming 10% of the stock from a line with 20 units is a much different headline than "ALL SERVICES CANCELLED — TfL's new fleet costing £Ms dead on arrival".
     
  29. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    I'm starting to fear for the future of Derby works.
    K
     
  30. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I wouldn't worry too much, things were similarly bad when the Electrostar was first introduced and look how many of those were ordered. The Aventra has already outsold the Desiro City by a considerable margin. Rolling stock development is too long a process for any TOC to justify cancelling their order and jumping ship. I think it's a foregone conclusion though that 710s aren't going to be seen en masse until the Summer or perhaps even the Autumn, and I don't imagine any of the other fleets will get a look in until a good few 710s are out and about. Whether, once the Goblin units are in, other TOCs are prioritised based on the end of lease arrangements for their existing stock remains to be seen.
     

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