Class 73/9 for Caledonian Sleeper

[HSTEd]

This is where I propose some sort of third rail West Highland Line electrification project.
I will draw something up with all dispatch!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

This is where I propose some sort of third rail West Highland Line electrification project.
I will draw something up with all dispatch!

Why third rail - there's 25kV AC available to Craigendoran Junction, a 275kV grid connection available at Cruachan and double 132kV circuit grid connections available at Rannoch and Fort William.

It's very well suited to AC electrification with the layout of lines and feeding options for the traffic patterns on the route.

DC would be a tall order, given the prevailing weather conditions in winter, with a lot of drifting snow and either rain water flooding or snow melt flooding on the route, the line isn't terribly well protected against animal incursion and you would need to completely renew the entire sleeper stock on the whole route.

AC electrification also has the fringe benefit of allowing the same locomotive to work from London through to Fort William, which could be useful if you want to stop all the shunting that's needed on the Highlander sleeper today.

 

[SeanG]

I think it was termed as a joke refering to the 73s' DC capability...

 

[HSTEd]

Why third rail - there's 25kV AC available to Craigendoran Junction, a 275kV grid connection available at Cruachan and double 132kV circuit grid connections available at Rannoch and Fort William.

Because otherwise we wouldn't be using 73s to maximum abilities

AC electrification also has the fringe benefit of allowing the same locomotive to work from London through to Fort William, which could be useful if you want to stop all the shunting that's needed on the Highlander sleeper today.

Well the 92s that haul the sleeper on the WCML can work on DC electrified lines anyway.
But using 73s would allow you to use Mk 1 southern region capable multiple working equipment.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think it was termed as a joke refering to the 73s' DC capability...

It's very hard to tell with HSTEd where the serious suggestions stop and the comedy begins.

 

[snakeeyes]

could the weight of a class 58 be reduced, were these ballasted at all, remove if possible and fit ETH?

 

[captainbigun]

could the weight of a class 58 be reduced, were these ballasted at all, remove if possible and fit ETH?

Why? It's completely unsuitable and they are all knackered. Not going to happen!

 

[matchmaker]

I look forward to seeing the 73/9s!

 

[59CosG95]

Besides, the loco that takes the Fort William portion of the sleeper has to run round in order to actually GET to the front of the stock. If all the branches north of Waverley were wired, the loco would take the Inverness portion first.

 

[DarloRich]

could the weight of a class 58 be reduced, were these ballasted at all, remove if possible and fit ETH?

give it up. It is a completely silly and impractical idea.

 

[route:oxford]

Besides, the loco that takes the Fort William portion of the sleeper has to run round in order to actually GET to the front of the stock. If all the branches north of Waverley were wired, the loco would take the Inverness portion first.

The Fort William portion could quite readily run under the wires as far as the wires go in the Glasgow area if it was routed via A2B

 

[Edward101]

The Fort William portion could quite readily run under the wires as far as the wires go in the Glasgow area if it was routed via A2B

Airdrie and Bathgate is definitely the normal route at the moment, but bear in mind that there will often be times when the Fort William portion is diverted onto secondary lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow- so diesel haulage has a definite advantage here. Also, where could a locomotive change take place (practically) in the Glasgow area, before the non-electrified WHL is reached at Craigendoran Junction? I'm struggling to think of anywhere on the normal route. Edinburgh is by far the most convenient place to change to diesel traction given the remarshalling that takes place here anyway.

In addition, the electrification around the Clyde (through Dalmuir and Dumbarton) was intended for suburban EMUs, so may not be able to cope with high-powered locos like 90s or 92s. I do not recall having ever seen an electric locomotive use it, just EMUs, with diesel locos on the sleeper and freights. What is the most powerful electric loco it could actually cope with? Have electric locos ever been tried on the route through the suburban lines and along the Clyde?
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could the weight of a class 58 be reduced, were these ballasted at all, remove if possible and fit ETH?

I don't think it's a simple case of removing a ballast weight. I also doubt there's any space to fit an ETS alternator anyway. Even if weight is reduced and ETS is fitted, you still have the issue of a heavy freight loco (probably still too heavy for the WHL) with poor acceleration and performance characteristics totally unsuited to passenger work, which would need re-gearing. Fuel economy would be as bad as, if not worse than, that of the 67s working the trains currently. I think the idea of 73s is to use a loco that is considerably more fuel-efficient than a 67.

Also the cost of these modifications would make it almost as sensible to build a completely new loco!

What is there that would possibly make a class 58 suitable for hauling sleeper trains over the HML and WHL, or any route for that matter?

 

[PHILIPE]

A Class 87 AC Electric once hauled some VIP Special through to Helensburgh in the early 70s almost straight away after electrification of the WCML to Glasgow when I was working and in close contact with events.

 

[34D]

I'm aware that the original class 73/1 couldn't supply ETS when on diesel: I assume this is different on the 73/9?

 

[jopsuk]

presumably it is for the sleeper 73/9s- there are after all a completely, fundamentally different set of 73/9 for NR. It is surely part of the spec for the sleeper ones, as otherwise a generator would have to be added somewhere to the train

 

[DarloRich]

presumably it is for the sleeper 73/9s- there are after all a completely, fundamentally different set of 73/9 for NR. It is surely part of the spec for the sleeper ones, as otherwise a generator would have to be added somewhere to the train

I'm aware that the original class 73/1 couldn't supply ETS when on diesel: I assume this is different on the 73/9?

I did have the ETH index figure somewhere but now cant find it :cry:

 

[GM228]

I did have the ETH index figure somewhere but now cant find it :cry:

Don't the standard GBRf 73/9s have a ETH of about 38 and the Caledonian 73/9s have 70.

Also have noticed that the Caledonian 73/9s don't appear to retain all the original 73 MW jumpers unlike the first batch of 73/9s, I tought apart from an upgraded ETH there were to be no other differences?

 

[cj_1985]

Don't the standard GBRf 73/9s have a ETH of about 38 and the Caledonian 73/9s have 70.

Also have noticed that the Caledonian 73/9s don't appear to retain all the original 73 MW jumpers unlike the first batch of 73/9s, I tought apart from an upgraded ETH there were to be no other differences?

From the pictures that I have seen, it looks like the CS 73/9s just lack the high level airlines, but retain the SR multi jumpers

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I'm aware that the original class 73/1 couldn't supply ETS when on diesel: I assume this is different on the 73/9?

Given the engine could barely power a moped, eth would suck significantly from the available power to traction if they did.

Can shift sumat on the juice tho.....

Gatwick express bashing on horsham diversions, how i miss those sundays.....

 

[ld0595]

Saw this shared on a Facebook page. Can't be long now!

 

[Smudger105e]

From the pictures that I have seen, it looks like the CS 73/9s just lack the high level airlines, but retain the SR multi jumpers

The jumpers are not standard EMU jumpers, they are there to provide compatability with class 66 family locos.

 

[cj_1985]

The jumpers are not standard EMU jumpers, they are there to provide compatability with class 66 family locos.

You sure about that?
While, yes, there is an AAR socket... the other cable and socket are the old SR system used to multi the 73s pre rebuild (and to allow 'backwards compatibility')

 

[Smudger105e]

You sure about that?
While, yes, there is an AAR socket... the other cable and socket are the old SR system used to multi the 73s pre rebuild (and to allow 'backwards compatibility')

I will have a look tomorrow.

 

[alexl92]

Just out of interest, do people genuinely think that the idea of using 73/9s for the sleeper is a good one, and will be succesful?

I ask because I seem to remember that around the time the plan was first announced, and then when the first example was about built, a lot of the railway magazines were emphatically denouncing any criticism and frankly to this layman/outsider it almost felt like they'd been told to make a big thing of what a great idea this was... a sort of propaganda... Which made me wonder if it was such a good idea after all?

 

[cf111]

Just out of interest, do people genuinely think that the idea of using 73/9s for the sleeper is a good one, and will be succesful?

I ask because I seem to remember that around the time the plan was first announced, and then when the first example was about built, a lot of the railway magazines were emphatically denouncing any criticism and frankly to this layman/outsider it almost felt like they'd been told to make a big thing of what a great idea this was... a sort of propaganda... Which made me wonder if it was such a good idea after all?

I'll wait and see how they perform before slating them but I think it's risky using what are effectively untested new builds rather than proven locomotives in a franchise which has suffered fairly serious reliability problems in its short existence.

 

[CosherB]

I'll wait and see how they perform before slating them but I think it's risky using what are effectively untested new builds rather than proven locomotives in a franchise which has suffered fairly serious reliability problems in its short existence.

And why are 67's being double headed in certain cases?

 

[Smudger105e]

You sure about that?

I have looked at number 7 today and you are correct, they are a SR 27 way jumper not a 66 AAR jumper. Sorry 'bout that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I hear on the grapevine that no is going on a trip Loughborough to Leicester today, leaving Loughborough at around 13.00
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have looked at number 7 today and you are correct, they are a SR 27 way jumper not a 66 AAR jumper. Sorry 'bout that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I hear on the grapevine that no is going on a trip Loughborough to Leicester today, leaving Loughborough at around 13.00

Number 7 for test run sorry.

 

[jopsuk]

Just out of interest, do people genuinely think that the idea of using 73/9s for the sleeper is a good one, and will be succesful?

I still think it's a very weird idea. I'd have thought that if old locos were to be used, then old 37s, 47s or other locos that have been "local" would be the answer, even fitted, as with the 73s, with new power units.

Given all the investment, it seems a shame that brand new locos aren't accompanying the new coaches

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And why are 67's being double headed in certain cases?

It was introduced after one of them sat down in an awkward place below Inverness a few months ago and caused a particularly spectacular piece of disruption that included the train having to return to Inverness - eventually. At the sort of time it should have been several hundred miles further south...

 

[Defiance149]

It was introduced after one of them sat down in an awkward place below Inverness a few months ago and caused a particularly spectacular piece of disruption that included the train having to return to Inverness - eventually. At the sort of time it should have been several hundred miles further south...

July 30th, 67007 failed near Aviemore, no rescue loco available until the following morning, passengers spent the night on the train. Double-headed almost every day since.