Class 802 failure between Exeter and Tiverton Parkway requiring evacuation (13/09)

[Thunderer]

I remember back in 2012 reading the 80 page plus full technical specification document for the IEP project and thinking back then this train is too reliant on computers and too complicated and intricate, giving scope for failures like this. I was recently delayed in Swansea because one 800 unit would not couple up with another (computer issue) another delay at Swansea when the exterior doors would not close on one 800 unit (25 minute delay), they eventually closed. For me, Its a sub-standard replacement for the HST and passenger comfort has been sacrificed (awful seats and no buffet car). I've travelled on them a lot since last October, and taking my enthusiasts cap off and looking at it from a Passenger point of view, it is a step backwards from the HST. Even 1st class is not very comfortable. One other thing I noticed when travelling over 100mph is an awful lot of lateral movement and the ride quality gets poorer. All that money spent on complex bi-mode trains that are less superior to the 40 year old plus trains they are replacing. The whole IEP project and DFT involvement has been an expensive disaster, and us poor GWR passengers will have to put up with them for the next few decades.

 

[Jensen]

Is it a similar case to the space race when the US spent a lot of US dollars attempting to design a pen that would work in zero gravity and the Russians used a pencil? Technology advances are brilliant but how many of us used all the features offered on the later spec VHS recorders? We just wanted a timer and a record feature. All we want is a train that works.

 

[HSTEd]

Is it a similar case to the space race when the US spent a lot of US dollars attempting to design a pen that would work in zero gravity and the Russians used a pencil? Technology advances are brilliant but how many of us used all the features offered on the later spec VHS recorders? We just wanted a timer and a record feature. All we want is a train that works.

Pencils are a really bad idea in space because if you sharpen them the graphite andw ood chippings float around and can get into your eyes and such.

What actually happened was the Russians just bought biros in huge numbers when they were released into civilian use.

 

[dubscottie]

Is it a similar case to the space race when the US spent a lot of US dollars attempting to design a pen that would work in zero gravity and the Russians used a pencil? Technology advances are brilliant but how many of us used all the features offered on the later spec VHS recorders? We just wanted a timer and a record feature. All we want is a train that works.

The pen thing is a bit of an urban myth. A company did invent a pen as pencils are dangerous in space (think the lead snapping and a tiny bit getting into a circuit). It used pressure to force the ink out as gravity fed ballpoints would not work.
IrishRail had the right idea with the 2900 and ICR fleets.

It was made clear that no unnecessary electronics/computers were to be used as it was just another thing to go wrong.

 

[Taunton]

There has clearly been no advance since a similar 6-hour delay to an HST on the same line, with the same TOC management, at Pewsey 5 years ago

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fgw-train-stranded-at-pewsey.87761/

It seems it's not so much the technical characteristics of the train so much as the procedures that get followed. Notably that prior thread was full of people stating "Lessons will be learned". Which never happened.

 

[ainsworth74]

There has clearly been no advance since a similar 6-hour delay to an HST on the same line, with the same TOC management, at Pewsey 5 years ago

I was thinking I could remember a similar farce involving an HST. But then I realised I must be mistaken as HSTs are perfect and never suffer failures and certainly not of this magnitude.

 

[lord rathmore]

I was thinking I could remember a similar farce involving an HST. But then I realised I must be mistaken as HSTs are perfect and never suffer failures and certainly not of this magnitude.

You are right mate. Rose-tinted glasses about the perfect trains of yesterday pervades railway discussions.

 

[JN114]

There was a London to Penzance train stranded outside St Erth for several hours only a few weeks ago; the Night Riviera sleeper train has been Stranded for 3+ hours on multiple occasions in the past year.

 

[Dai Corner]

Let's not forget the Atmospheric Railway or IKBs early attempts at traction engineering!

 

[cf111]

I was thinking I could remember a similar farce involving an HST. But then I realised I must be mistaken as HSTs are perfect and never suffer failures and certainly not of this magnitude.

And if anything did go wrong, which obviously it never would, all the passengers would be able to stretch out in their armchair-esque seats while being served gourmet food from the restaurant car.

 

[D1009]

Have the sets involved re entered service yet?

 

[Siemens Staines]

I don't know about 802005, but 802010 was paired with 802009 on the Paddington - Bristol circuit today

 

[D1009]

From what we know about the incident, is it the case that the whole thing was a "computer says no", and there was no actual mechanical failure? Computer saying no meaning that it effectively adopted the nuclear option, which was to drop the brake and resist any attempts to rectify it.

 

[221129]

From what we know about the incident, is it the case that the whole thing was a "computer says no", and there was no actual mechanical failure? Computer saying no meaning that it effectively adopted the nuclear option, which was to drop the brake and resist any attempts to rectify it.

The initial fault was mechanical.

 

[Geoff DC]

So by that observation any pre-digital driver should be able to fix it

 

[221129]

So by that observation any pre-digital driver should be able to fix it

Not at all.

 

[Jimini]

One other thing I noticed when travelling over 100mph is an awful lot of lateral movement and the ride quality gets poorer.

Just to highlight this point as I've noticed this a lot recently. I spend quite a bit of time heading to meetings in Swindon / Bristol / Newport from London and it's really noticeable. Is it a weight thing maybe, the IETs are lighter than HSTs so they get bumped around a bit more? First world problems, and all that jazz, but it's quite distracting when trying to work on a laptop.

 

[irish_rail]

Incorrectly fitted pipework from the factory apparently so no not an easy fix exactly....

 

[gsnedders]

Incorrectly fitted pipework from the factory apparently so no not an easy fix exactly....

Yeah but obviously if it were a good old British built train with no computers that wouldn't have happened and even when it did the driver could've easily refitted the pipework!

(/s, for the sarcasm impaired)

 

[Thunderer]

Just to highlight this point as I've noticed this a lot recently. I spend quite a bit of time heading to meetings in Swindon / Bristol / Newport from London and it's really noticeable. Is it a weight thing maybe, the IETs are lighter than HSTs so they get bumped around a bit more? First world problems, and all that jazz, but it's quite distracting when trying to work on a laptop.

Thanks, I thought it was just me noticing this ha! One ride I had back from Reading in August was particularly bad between Reading and Bristol Parkway..I think the unit was 800012. At one point before Chipping Sodbury tunnel the sudden lateral movement was so bad it caused me to move left in my seat and bang my elbow on the window ledge. Not good!

 

[43055]

Just to highlight this point as I've noticed this a lot recently. I spend quite a bit of time heading to meetings in Swindon / Bristol / Newport from London and it's really noticeable. Is it a weight thing maybe, the IETs are lighter than HSTs so they get bumped around a bit more? First world problems, and all that jazz, but it's quite distracting when trying to work on a laptop.

Thanks, I thought it was just me noticing this ha! One ride I had back from Reading in August was particularly bad between Reading and Bristol Parkway..I think the unit was 800012. At one point before Chipping Sodbury tunnel the sudden lateral movement was so bad it caused me to move left in my seat and bang my elbow on the window ledge. Not good!

I noticed if the other week between Swindon and Didcot. It happened about 3 times.

 

[Thunderer]

I noticed if the other week between Swindon and Didcot. It happened about 3 times.

Im wondering if its less noticable on an 800/3 (one train) as opposed to 2 x 800's joined together? Just a Theory? I will have to take a trip on an 800/3 up to Reading and back too see if its the same.

 

[CMRail]

Really? So no one at GWR or Hitachi could give two hoots about what happened and they are all studiously ignoring it (sarcasm alert).



I'm not at all surprised, given the way some posters here and on the GW Passengers' Forum jump on any issue with an IET, big or small.

Whereas HSTs/Class 91s/anything else on wheels worked perfectly straight out of the box and has done ever since... (sarcasm alert)

In the same way that nothing ever goes wrong on Chiltern, such as cancellations due to crew shortages (more last weekend) or this morning's complete signalling failure south of Gerrards Cross, which is playing merry hell with services at Marylebone right now.

I have to agree with most that is written in the message, people are obsessed with moaningn about these trains. God knows how many times the seats have been mentioned, buffets and the fact that the HST is on average 3mph faster up hills (we should send the IETs back, appalling.)

If the project went to plan right now most of the 125 sections would have been nearing electrification completion, however that is not the case and nor will it be for at least half a decade.

The interior is changeable. I put money on the interior being refurbished in 4 or 5 years time and the seats being changed sooner. The train is not perfect and it has its issues, most are fixable or just teething problems just like the HST.

 

[jimm]

If the electrification project had met the original expectations in 2009, everything, including Cardiff-Swansea, would have been wired by last year.

The Great Western route will be electrified from London to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea by 2017, along with the lines to Oxford and Newbury, at a cost of £1bn.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...rification-planning-to-start-immediately.html

We have yet to hear what will happen in Control Period 6, which starts in April next year, so more wires could very well be in place long before 2024. With Oxford now resignalled, there is nothing standing in the way of cracking straight on with Didcot-Oxford if the funds are there.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm assuming the 'Bimodes negate the need for electrification' view is still currently being held by the DfT? I do wonder if that may scupper funding for any future proposals in areas where Bimode stock operates.

 

[jimm]

So long as the wires end at Didcot, the 387s cannot get anywhere near Oxford, which I doubt even the DfT mandarins can argue is a desirable state of affairs in the long term, especially if the Government is supposedly serious about reducing diesel emissions in our cities. Same goes for Bristol.

And hopefully the current Transport Secretary will put be out out to grass soon, saving Britain from more of the kind of thing detailed in this article from the Guardian (written by David Cameron's former speechwriter) only yesterday.

With his history of bumbling ministerial ineptitude, the sooner Chris Grayling’s cabinet career hits the buffers the better

Imagine you were running a business and one of your senior managers left a trail of disaster in their wake. First, you would investigate to see what had gone wrong in each case. And then, if you found the same person was responsible for repeated failures, you might either dismiss them or, if feeling generous, put them in charge of the paper clips. But as the hapless career of Chris Grayling proves, they do things differently in government.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/20/railways-chris-grayling-cabinet-career

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed, they really should sort Oxford out, but the political discussion (I realise it was me that started it, probably better for another thread) - if not by now, then probably never. Wait until he gets bored of the role I suppose...

 

[ainsworth74]

I think this thread has now run its course. There are other threads already in existence to discuss more wider issues with the trains themselves or with the electrification programme. Therefore this thread is locked. If anyone has anything to substantial and new to add to the original topic of this thread then please feel free to report this post and consideration will be given to reopening the thread.

Thanks!