Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[superalbs]

Hi all, I have been following this thread for a couple of years now, though unlike Avanti's 800s that have been on the mainline, there's been little to nothing about EMRs 810s. If they are introducing 33 of them, surely there isn't room in the sheds to hide all of them. How is it that their introduction (in any stages) is so slow?

They are very different trains, and because of the new design, the approvals process will take longer.

 

[QSK19]

Hi all, I have been following this thread for a couple of years now, though unlike Avanti's 800s that have been on the mainline, there's been little to nothing about EMRs 810s. If they are introducing 33 of them, surely there isn't room in the sheds to hide all of them. How is it that their introduction (in any stages) is so slow?

And further to the above point, EMR are in no rush to offload the 222s - they have no future home lined up, so no pressure to cascade them elsewhere.

Relatively-speaking, they can take their time introducing the 810s.

 

[800001]

They are very different trains, and because of the new design, the approvals process will take longer.

None have left Hitachi’s factory, 810001 is still undergoing static testing, no moving testing has started yet

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They are very different trains, and because of the new design, the approvals process will take longer.

Yes they have shorter body but the rest of the train is just updated version of 8xx series so should take no longer to get type approval than they did and really it ought to be quicker but operators have no impetus to get new trains into use these days. Anyhow on this occasion the longer the better as im sure the 222's will be a superior product.

 

[Snow1964]

Slightly off topic, but of interest to those wondering about capacity of new 810s.

The ORR has just released new figures, and figure 1.2 show East Midlands above 100% of 2019 passenger numbers for Jan-Mar. Table 1.3 has annual figures and also over 100% for East Midlands.

Rather makes me wonder if the 810 fleet will be big enough, especially if numbers grow further when electrification disruption ends.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2207/passenger-rail-usage-jan-mar-2023.pdf

 

[JonathanH]

The ORR has just released new figures, and figure 1.2 show East Midlands above 100% of 2019 passenger numbers for Jan-Mar. Table 1.3 has annual figures and also over 100% for East Midlands.

Some of that is Bedford and Luton passengers using 360s to get to London, which didn't happen in 2019.

Rather makes me wonder if the 810 fleet will be big enough, especially if numbers grow further when electrification disruption ends.

There has been plenty of speculation about that. I think that it will be up to EMR to make sure they diagram the 810s appropriately.

 

[Snow1964]

Some of that is Bedford and Luton passengers using 360s to get to London, which didn't happen in 2019.

Table 5.1 shows 27.5m vehicle Km, just 1% more than in 2019.

The 360s operate lot more than 1% of EMR services, so must have been offset by cuts to mileage being done by other fleets

Still unclear to me, if detach an 810 at St Pancras, run it empty to Cricklewood, bring it back sometime later to attach to later service, do you end up with less vehicle Km than currently. I would guess some trains will be excessive with double units, but too busy for a single unit.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2207/passenger-rail-usage-jan-mar-2023.pdf

 

[43066]

Still unclear to me, if detach an 810 at St Pancras, run it empty to Cricklewood, bring it back sometime later to attach to later service, do you end up with less vehicle Km than currently. I would guess some trains will be excessive with double units, but too busy for a single unit.

This already happens a fair bit with the meridian fleet, so will depend on how similar the diagrams are.

 

[WildNorthlands]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this - Does anyone know what the cycle storage is going to be like on these new trains? The
cubby-hole storage on the GWR and EC units is a disaster and I fear the East Mids will be going the same way.

Simon

 

[Skymonster]

OLE is going up outside the new shed at Etches Park - presumably to enable limited moves / post-maintenance testing under the wires in the depot.

 

[LowLevel]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this - Does anyone know what the cycle storage is going to be like on these new trains? The
cubby-hole storage on the GWR and EC units is a disaster and I fear the East Mids will be going the same way.

Simon

I've not seen anything to suggest the cycle storage will be any different to other IET fleets.

The 222 storage for bikes has never been great either to be fair. Blocking the cab exit door if they stick out slightly was a bit of an error.

 

[TheWalrus]

Does anyone know why they have opted for bi modes when the MML is supposed to be electrified (if it is completed)? Is it for diversionary flexibility or to do the runs via Corby, or simply because we didn’t/dont know MML wiring will be complete at the time of ordering?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does anyone know why they have opted for bi modes when the MML is supposed to be electrified (if it is completed)? Is it for diversionary flexibility or to do the runs via Corby, or simply because we didn’t/dont know MML wiring will be complete at the time of ordering?

Think it's because the trains will be ready a good few years before the wires make it all the way to Sheffield. Them being bi-mode will have added bonuses in the form of diversionary flexibility, and for the handful of runs via Corby & Melton Mowbray.

 

[Nym]

Also means the DfT can just cancel the electrification whenever they feel it convenient to do so.

 

[QSK19]

The 810s are ultimately down Failing Grayling - given to the MML as a sop for cancelling full electrification. However, as others have said, the 810s work out well in the sense that they can be used for diversionary purposes, if the wires are not working for whatever reason and given that the MML won’t be fully wired before they are introduced into service.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 810s are ultimately down Failing Grayling - given to the MML as a sop for cancelling full electrification. However, as others have said, the 810s work out well in the sense that they can be used for diversionary purposes, if the wires are not working for whatever reason and given that the MML won’t be fully wired before they are introduced into service.

But that shouldn't be how railways operate. How many other administrations around the world build electric trains, with diesels just in case the electrics don't work ?
It is a cop out and is embarrassing. Could you imagine DB building Bimode ICEs or the SNCF Bimode TGVs ?

In this case Grayling cancelled the MML electrification and used a somewhat pathetic excuse that electrification would only have saved one minute on the journey time to Sheffield - Liar and cheat.

What is disappointing is that electrified routes are not planned to be joined up. Wigston - Nuneaton - Water Orton - Proof House Jn, and Water Orton- Derby would be two really useful connections, as well as Sheffield - Doncaster. Even if there is no mo0ney now, there needs to be a proper plan to get these done within Fiscal periods like the Scottish have done with their network.

 

[Killingworth]

Does anyone know why they have opted for bi modes when the MML is supposed to be electrified (if it is completed)? Is it for diversionary flexibility or to do the runs via Corby, or simply because we didn’t/dont know MML wiring will be complete at the time of ordering?

Because it will be at least 10 years before Sheffield will be wired from St Pancras?

 

[YourMum666]

But that shouldn't be how railways operate. How many other administrations around the world build electric trains, with diesels just in case the electrics don't work ?
It is a cop out and is embarrassing. Could you imagine DB building Bimode ICEs or the SNCF Bimode TGVs ?

In this case Grayling cancelled the MML electrification and used a somewhat pathetic excuse that electrification would only have saved one minute on the journey time to Sheffield - Liar and cheat.

What is disappointing is that electrified routes are not planned to be joined up. Wigston - Nuneaton - Water Orton - Proof House Jn, and Water Orton- Derby would be two really useful connections, as well as Sheffield - Doncaster. Even if there is no mo0ney now, there needs to be a proper plan to get these done within Fiscal periods like the Scottish have done with their network.

Grayling is as much of a curse to the railways as the damned Dr Beeching

 

[Trainbike46]

Does anyone know why they have opted for bi modes when the MML is supposed to be electrified (if it is completed)? Is it for diversionary flexibility or to do the runs via Corby, or simply because we didn’t/dont know MML wiring will be complete at the time of ordering?

When the trains were ordered electrification beyond kettering was not yet confirmed, or rather, the previous incarnation had been cancelled and the current one had not yet started; Even now, I don't think electrification of the whole route to Sheffield and Nottingham has actually been confirmed, though correct me if I'm wrong please

 

[800001]

First unit from Hitachi, 810001, is due to be hauled on Friday from Aycliffe to Old Dalby Test track to start its testing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know why they have opted for bi modes when the MML is supposed to be electrified (if it is completed)? Is it for diversionary flexibility or to do the runs via Corby, or simply because we didn’t/dont know MML wiring will be complete at the time of ordering?

They were ordered at a time where there was no confirmed plan for electrifying the line.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They were ordered at a time where there was no confirmed plan for electrifying the line.

Mind you, GWR changed their order of 801s to 800/3s, so something probably could have been done, but as the electrification won’t be here for a while it’s probably wise that they didn’t.

 

[Bald Rick]

Mind you, GWR changed their order of 801s to 800/3s,

Very, very expensively!

 

[QSK19]

But that shouldn't be how railways operate. How many other administrations around the world build electric trains, with diesels just in case the electrics don't work ?
It is a cop out and is embarrassing. Could you imagine DB building Bimode ICEs or the SNCF Bimode TGVs ?

In this case Grayling cancelled the MML electrification and used a somewhat pathetic excuse that electrification would only have saved one minute on the journey time to Sheffield - Liar and cheat.

What is disappointing is that electrified routes are not planned to be joined up. Wigston - Nuneaton - Water Orton - Proof House Jn, and Water Orton- Derby would be two really useful connections, as well as Sheffield - Doncaster. Even if there is no mo0ney now, there needs to be a proper plan to get these done within Fiscal periods like the Scottish have done with their network.

Agreed. Electrification should have gone ahead and we should have been getting something like an 801 (albeit with the 24m car length) - one engine in order to get itself off the line of the power is down and for depot movements.

But hey ho, we have a sop of a solution

 

[DDB]

Agreed. Electrification should have gone ahead and we should have been getting something like an 801 (albeit with the 24m car length) - one engine in order to get itself off the line of the power is down and for depot movements.

But hey ho, we have a sop of a solution

But that is effectively what we will probably end up with. Once the line is fully electrified they can take out all but one engine from the train and then rotate the engines through as I believe the engines have less expected life than the train as a whole.

 

[800001]

Path in for Thursday for loco from Leicester to Merchant Park, ready for Fridays move of 810001 to Old Dalby.

 

[YourMum666]

Wonder when the 810s will start mainline testing

 

[800001]

Wonder when the 810s will start mainline testing

Think that’s a long way off yet. As this is treat as a brand you train, it has to go through all the testing that the original 80X fleet did, so can imagine this will spend several weeks, maybe months at Old Dalby first.
810001 is basically a shell, nothing fitted inside the train, no seats, tables, wall panels etc.

 

[Snow1964]

Think that’s a long way off yet. As this is treat as a brand you train, it has to go through all the testing that the original 80X fleet did, so can imagine this will spend several weeks, maybe months at Old Dalby first.
810001 is basically a shell, nothing fitted inside the train, no seats, tables, wall panels etc.

Technically it is a brand new train, but in reality is basically same as an 805 and earlier 5car 80x with shorter bodywork.

Its not like it will take much testing to discover if it works with one less window in each carriage side, and different colour paint. Ultimately it has same engine, bogies, braking, and control gear etc.

 

[800001]

Technically it is a brand new train, but in reality is basically same as an 805 and earlier 5car 80x with shorter bodywork.

It’s not like it will take much testing to discover if it works with one less window in each carriage side, and different colour paint. Ultimately it has same engine, bogies, braking, and control gear etc.

It does not have the same engines actually. They are different to original 80x.

The shorter coaches mean the train handles differently, at speeds The bogies will hunt completely differently, it will accelerate and brake differently.

They would not go through all this if they did it have to, but just cos it is an 8Xx, does mean they just roll it of the production like and away you go.

I’m sure the people building, organising and testing, know what they are doing , and don’t look and go ‘oh it has one less window, that’s fine for service off you go lads’!