Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[XCTurbostar]

Happened to spot videos on Twitter of 810001 moving under its own power:
(Link is to a Twitter post showing a purple train moving very slowly)

https://twitter.com/Class8xx/status/1682359453717344256?t=eQW6-DgdueWAaGNc_hqUpg&s=19

The engines sound identical to all other 80x. The front with the lights is awesome.

 

[heathrowrail]

Agree the front ends look 10 times better, also noticed the gangways finally have windows unlike all the other units which is a big surprise.

 

[QSK19]

Fully in agreement that the front looks absolutely super compared to the normal 80x one. Every time I see an update on the 810s, I really do feel like these are going to be super trains for the East Mids. Got to see them in real life before making any proper judgement, of course, but the signs are promising.

For all the rubbish luck that EMT/EMR has had in terms of rolling stock (an IC-specific example being the ex-LNER HST debacle), the 810s seem to be the turning point. Combined with the 158s, 170s and 360s being refurbished to a decent standard, EMR should at long last have a decent fleet.

 

[ZCreaser]

Is this the Class 810 on the move? Cheers

 

[800001]

Is this the Class 810 on the move? Cheers

No, as the 810 is at Old Dalby Test track.

This is planned to be 56081 hauling 5 car Avanti 805002.

 

[Mzzzs]

Sorry if been asked before but what are the onboard catering facilities like and also will there be some kind of shop?

 

[AJDesiro]

Sorry if been asked before but what are the onboard catering facilities like and also will there be some kind of shop?

I believe they will have a trolley provision in standard with a galley for catering in first.

 

[Jozhua]

Fully in agreement that the front looks absolutely super compared to the normal 80x one. Every time I see an update on the 810s, I really do feel like these are going to be super trains for the East Mids. Got to see them in real life before making any proper judgement, of course, but the signs are promising.

For all the rubbish luck that EMT/EMR has had in terms of rolling stock (an IC-specific example being the ex-LNER HST debacle), the 810s seem to be the turning point. Combined with the 158s, 170s and 360s being refurbished to a decent standard, EMR should at long last have a decent fleet.

Long overdue!

Hopefully expanding electrification will improve this as well. My only concern is capacity, but I'm sure a future add on is always possible with Hitachi being active for a number of years to come.

Plenty of 158s and 170s knocking around if we need more of them!

 

[liamf656]

I believe they will have a trolley provision in standard with a galley for catering in first.

Correct, there will be no snack counter on these units

 

[ajp999]

810001 was out and about on the Old Dalby test track yesterday making it up to Edwalton.

 

[Rxstron]

810001 was out and about on the Old Dalby test track yesterday making it up to Edwalton.

Is there a way of finding out when the 810s are actually on the test track? Is there a schedule?

 

[800001]

Is there a way of finding out when the 810s are actually on the test track? Is there a schedule?

No, they appear when they want to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

For info, end car of 810002 is currently being prepared to be sent to Hitachi’s Pistoria Plant in Italy.
It is joining one carriage that was sent last month and will be there for Climate Chamber Testing (extreme heat and cold).
This carriage has its full interior fitted which is needed as part of the test process.

 

[ajp999]

Is there a way of finding out when the 810s are actually on the test track? Is there a schedule?

No, they appear when they want to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

For info, end car of 810002 is currently being prepared to be sent to Hitachi’s Pistoria Plant in Italy.
It is joining one carriage that was sent last month and will be there for Climate Chamber Testing (extreme heat and cold).
This carriage has its full interior fitted which is needed as part of the test process.

The last two days have been consistent with appearances at 1000. It has probably done other runs but those were the only ones I have seen.

 

[800001]

The last two days have been consistent with appearances at 1000. It has probably done other runs but those were the only ones I have seen.

They will have an internal schedule, as the line I believe can be divided into operating sections. Suppose all depends on what work is required.

I’ve stood on farm track bridge all day, seen nothing, yet get back to shed and at 1800 units appear in convoy of the test track.

I guess it’s just pot luck if anything is seen.

 

[Aspen90]

Is the bridge over the neck to the shed accessible by public? I can’t tell from Google maps…

 

[800001]

Is the bridge over the neck to the shed accessible by public? I can’t tell from Google maps…

It is yes, if you search for ‘Welby Lane, Asfordby’, I’ve marked a cross on the attached picture, small area to park at that corner, and a public footpath heads off to the right this leads to the bridge over the main shed.

 

[Aspen90]

It is yes, if you search for ‘Welby Lane, Asfordby’, I’ve marked a cross on the attached picture, small area to park at that corner, and a public footpath heads off to the right this leads to the bridge over the main shed.

Thank you so much, I’ll take a wander down. I’ll be working closely with these so I’ve got a vested interest!

 

[800001]

Thank you so much, I’ll take a wander down. I’ll be working closely with these so I’ve got a vested interest!

No problem. I’ve been some days nothing has moved, other days a procession of units back and forth all day.

 

[Nottingham59]

The red line (from footpathmap) shows the route of the public footpath

The Welby Road on the left is actually called Welby Lane on Google maps

 

[Aspen90]

The red line (from footpathmap) shows the route of the public footpath
View attachment 139936
The Welby Road on the left is actually called Welby Lane on Google maps

That’s great, thanks very much. I’ll take a wander and see if I can spot it.

 

[Eastern Farmer]

This may sound like a stupid question but I am very much a layman when it comes to railways!
On the 810s how will the power control work. By this I mean will the brake be set in notches (I think that’s the word) or gradual. Also will the power settings be in notches or will that be Gradual as well. The reason I ask it because I can notice the difference between the class 700s and class 387s when I have used them to London. I would base it on the Azumas which I gather are similar to these but am unsure how their power and brake control thing is.
Again I sincerely apologise for my lack of knowledge but I am very much a passenger who has started to develop an interest (completely different to the rest of my family!)

 

[railwaysteam]

Does anyone know when the 222's will be retired/what will happen with them? Sorry if already mentioned

 

[liamf656]

Does anyone know when the 222's will be retired/what will happen with them? Sorry if already mentioned

Although nothing has been confirmed, It’s being speculated on quite a lot at the moment

What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

If needed, Please move Will XC take them over? I know that GC are taking the Avanti 221's so not to GC. Or will scotrail take them for the inter7city trains or will it be scrap?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[railwaysteam]

Although nothing has been confirmed, It’s being speculated on quite a lot at the moment

What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

If needed, Please move Will XC take them over? I know that GC are taking the Avanti 221's so not to GC. Or will scotrail take them for the inter7city trains or will it be scrap?

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you

 

[py_megapixel]

Does anyone know when the 222's will be retired/what will happen with them? Sorry if already mentioned

They are currently leased from Eversholt Rail Group, so in the first instance they'll be returned there. It's then up to Eversholt what they do with them. There are no firm publicly-announced plans but see the thread linked by @liamf656 for some speculation.

 

[Wyrleybart]

This may sound like a stupid question but I am very much a layman when it comes to railways!
On the 810s how will the power control work. By this I mean will the brake be set in notches (I think that’s the word) or gradual. Also will the power settings be in notches or will that be Gradual as well. The reason I ask it because I can notice the difference between the class 700s and class 387s when I have used them to London. I would base it on the Azumas which I gather are similar to these but am unsure how their power and brake control thing is.
Again I sincerely apologise for my lack of knowledge but I am very much a passenger who has started to develop an interest (completely different to the rest of my family!)

I imagine the 810s will be quite similar int terms of traction control and braking to the existing 80x fleets. I believe the diesel generator sets are controlled electronically by the computers on board. The driver selects the power setting on their power brake controller (which controls) AC and diesel, then the computer decides what RPM to run the various engines at to produce the optimum output from the gensets. I believe there are speed curves involved where the engines hustle the train up to around 40mph quite quickly, but then the demand eases - at least on the GWR ones. But they have had around eighty versions of the software so far.

The class 800s and 802s on the GWR routes are subtly different in terms of control. Both have rheostatic pods on their roofs but the 800s have less capacity because the DfT were intending to wire most of their routes - Swansea, Oxford and Bristol. None of these have happened so the GWR 801s were modified to become 800/3s with diesels. The 802s were designed more as a bimode as they were planned to replace the HSTs with less time under the overhead wires. A byproduct of this is the difference in braking under rheo conditions when passing through neutral sections. Not sure whether the 810s will get the "full fat" rheo braking like the 802s, or the "slimline" version like the 800s.

So in terms of braking, the majority will be rheo using the traction motors to decelerate, then blending in the air brakes below a certain speed, but this obviously depends o nthe EMR electrification and how the 810s are set up.

One other difference will I believe be floor height. The 800s were built with a slightly higher floor height in the motor cars to take account of the MTU engine under the floor. Because of this i believe there are very slight "ramps" in the vestibules between the GWR and probably LNER 80x. I understand the EMR class 810s will have four cars powered out of the five, which means one of the driving vehicles if not both will have the slightly higher floor compared to the class 80x designs. Perhaps both end cars will be powered, with two of the three middle cars.

 

[GC class B1]

I imagine the 810s will be quite similar int terms of traction control and braking to the existing 80x fleets. I believe the diesel generator sets are controlled electronically by the computers on board. The driver selects the power setting on their power brake controller (which controls) AC and diesel, then the computer decides what RPM to run the various engines at to produce the optimum output from the gensets. I believe there are speed curves involved where the engines hustle the train up to around 40mph quite quickly, but then the demand eases - at least on the GWR ones. But they have had around eighty versions of the software so far.

The class 800s and 802s on the GWR routes are subtly different in terms of control. Both have rheostatic pods on their roofs but the 800s have less capacity because the DfT were intending to wire most of their routes - Swansea, Oxford and Bristol. None of these have happened so the GWR 801s were modified to become 800/3s with diesels. The 802s were designed more as a bimode as they were planned to replace the HSTs with less time under the overhead wires. A byproduct of this is the difference in braking under rheo conditions when passing through neutral sections. Not sure whether the 810s will get the "full fat" rheo braking like the 802s, or the "slimline" version like the 800s.

So in terms of braking, the majority will be rheo using the traction motors to decelerate, then blending in the air brakes below a certain speed, but this obviously depends o nthe EMR electrification and how the 810s are set up.

One other difference will I believe be floor height. The 800s were built with a slightly higher floor height in the motor cars to take account of the MTU engine under the floor. Because of this i believe there are very slight "ramps" in the vestibules between the GWR and probably LNER 80x. I understand the EMR class 810s will have four cars powered out of the five, which means one of the driving vehicles if not both will have the slightly higher floor compared to the class 80x designs. Perhaps both end cars will be powered, with two of the three middle cars.

I understand the GWR and LNER class 800 have only regenerative braking and not rheostatic braking. This means that on diesel there isn’t any dynamic brake only friction brake. I believe that the class 810 will have both Regenerative and rheostatic braking.
With regard to brake control I think all Class 800 have a continuously variable braking system controlled via train lines using a PWM ( pulse wave modulation) signal. Class 387 have a three step braking system which gives approximately 3, 6 and 9%g deceleration with 12%g deceleration in Emergency.

 

[swt_passenger]

I understand the EMR class 810s will have four cars powered out of the five, which means one of the driving vehicles if not both will have the slightly higher floor compared to the class 80x designs. Perhaps both end cars will be powered, with two of the three middle cars.

Yes both end cars have gensets, the setup was described in an earlier post in the thread. But only 2 cars have traction motors:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...roduction-updates.195052/page-40#post-5786428

 

[TreacleMiller]

I understand the GWR and LNER class 800 have only regenerative braking and not rheostatic braking. This means that on diesel there isn’t any dynamic brake only friction brake. I believe that the class 810 will have both Regenerative and rheostatic braking.

Not quite. 800s have all three braking modes but you are correct on diesel mode its straight friction braking, at least on my traction.

Larger brake resistors on 802s and I believe possibly the GWR units allow for rheostatic for longer periods than those on sets with much, much smaller units.

This also impacts the speed limiting function. On diesel mode 8XX units I drive will not limit speed on a falling gradient the same way they would in electric mode, which creates an overspeed risk.

 

[Eastern Farmer]

I imagine the 810s will be quite similar int terms of traction control and braking to the existing 80x fleets. I believe the diesel generator sets are controlled electronically by the computers on board. The driver selects the power setting on their power brake controller (which controls) AC and diesel, then the computer decides what RPM to run the various engines at to produce the optimum output from the gensets. I believe there are speed curves involved where the engines hustle the train up to around 40mph quite quickly, but then the demand eases - at least on the GWR ones. But they have had around eighty versions of the software so far.

The class 800s and 802s on the GWR routes are subtly different in terms of control. Both have rheostatic pods on their roofs but the 800s have less capacity because the DfT were intending to wire most of their routes - Swansea, Oxford and Bristol. None of these have happened so the GWR 801s were modified to become 800/3s with diesels. The 802s were designed more as a bimode as they were planned to replace the HSTs with less time under the overhead wires. A byproduct of this is the difference in braking under rheo conditions when passing through neutral sections. Not sure whether the 810s will get the "full fat" rheo braking like the 802s, or the "slimline" version like the 800s.

So in terms of braking, the majority will be rheo using the traction motors to decelerate, then blending in the air brakes below a certain speed, but this obviously depends o nthe EMR electrification and how the 810s are set up.

One other difference will I believe be floor height. The 800s were built with a slightly higher floor height in the motor cars to take account of the MTU engine under the floor. Because of this i believe there are very slight "ramps" in the vestibules between the GWR and probably LNER 80x. I understand the EMR class 810s will have four cars powered out of the five, which means one of the driving vehicles if not both will have the slightly higher floor compared to the class 80x designs. Perhaps both end cars will be powered, with two of the three middle cars.

I understand the GWR and LNER class 800 have only regenerative braking and not rheostatic braking. This means that on diesel there isn’t any dynamic brake only friction brake. I believe that the class 810 will have both Regenerative and rheostatic braking.
With regard to brake control I think all Class 800 have a continuously variable braking system controlled via train lines using a PWM ( pulse wave modulation) signal. Class 387 have a three step braking system which gives approximately 3, 6 and 9%g deceleration with 12%g deceleration in Emergency.

Not quite. 800s have all three braking modes but you are correct on diesel mode its straight friction braking, at least on my traction.

Larger brake resistors on 802s and I believe possibly the GWR units allow for rheostatic for longer periods than those on sets with much, much smaller units.

This also impacts the speed limiting function. On diesel mode 8XX units I drive will not limit speed on a falling gradient the same way they would in electric mode, which creates an overspeed risk.

Thanks all three of you for your explanations. I have just one last question. As I understand the brakes on the 8xxs have the variable continuous brake (similar to 395s?) unlike the 387s but do they have the power notches like the 387s or is that variable too? Sorry for the rather specific questions but I am going to be using the MML a bit more and these units will become nearly as common to me as the Azumas and I do find that trains with the power notches can be less smooth on acceleration than those without. Thanks, and again sorry for all the questions!