Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[gingertom]

Does anyone know if the motors on the 810 will be any different to the current motors used on class 80x trains? I love the sound of the current motors so I'm wondering if the 810s will sound the same or different. Cheers

My understanding is that they are not the same, but of higher output. There are to be 4 powered bogies / 8 traction motors, as the design top speed is 125mph as opposed to the 140 of the 80x.

 

[Energy]

My understanding is that they are not the same, but of higher output. There are to be 4 powered bogies / 8 traction motors, as the design top speed is 125mph as opposed to the 140 of the 80x.

Indeed, traction motors only on the 2nd and 4th vehicles. The motors will be the same Hitachi air-cooled copper rotor induction motors but I'm not sure whether they are the 226kW (80x) or 250kW (385) ones.

 

[gingertom]

Indeed, traction motors only on the 2nd and 4th vehicles. The motors will be the same Hitachi air-cooled copper rotor induction motors but I'm not sure whether they are the 226kW (80x) or 250kW (385) ones.

the bigger ones. 10% more power? Same as the gensets, 10% above that of the 80x. I'm worried about the longevity of the engines operating at this power.

 

[Elecman]

That was brought in at pretty much all TOCs after a number of nasty accidents involving people spilling their hot drinks over passengers sat down as they walked past them. Usually because of the train going over pointwork and lurching to the side, unbalancing the passenger.

Correct I was severely scalded ( still gave the scar on my arm after someone tipped thier entire drink over me in coach D of a Pendo back in Virgin days

 

[Bornin1980s]

Are there yet any images of 810s with the nose cones closed?

 

[800001]

Are there yet any images of 810s with the nose cones closed?

Photo attached from class 8xx photography group on Facebook, link attached below

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[Bornin1980s]

Photo attached from class 8xx photography group on Facebook, link attached below

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Thanks.

 

[Pete_uk]

Looks like a type of hornet

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Have the 810s been down specced ?

In Rock Rail East Midlands Accounts note 16 (Financial Commitments) at 31/12/21 was £332.1m but year later (without any becoming assets) had fallen to £236.7m

So big question is where did 29% of the order go, are there less trains, or simpler spec, or was price reduced

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The other strange one, is in Accounts note 21, it gives ultimate controlling company as Hitachi Rail Limited and Rolling Stock Investment No 1 Ltd. So are the 810s actually staying as Hitachi owned, with Rock Rail just being a legal fronting company

So these accounts albeit nearly 8 months old now show us that they expected to receive leasing income in 2023 which can only come if East Midlands accept any trains unlikely. They are due to start repaying debt from Mar 24 which was probably the time they expected the full fleet in use. The current leases expire in August 2027 although E.Mids have a two year option. You have to wonder how these companies are prepared to invest best part of half a billion pounds!!

 

[Mzzzs]

Any interior photos yet? seems to be nothing.

 

[Merle Haggard]

So these accounts albeit nearly 8 months old now show us that they expected to receive leasing income in 2023 which can only come if East Midlands accept any trains unlikely. They are due to start repaying debt from Mar 24 which was probably the time they expected the full fleet in use. The current leases expire in August 2027 although E.Mids have a two year option. You have to wonder how these companies are prepared to invest best part of half a billion pounds!!

I wonder how private investment in railways is affected by the (massive) increase in interest rates. Is it possible that they've got long term fixed rates (0.5 % against the current 5 - 6%) I wonder. If so, mortgagees might be jealous...

 

[mfranjic]

Does anyone know if the motors on the 810 will be any different to the current motors used on class 80x trains? I love the sound of the current motors so I'm wondering if the 810s will sound the same or different. Cheers

Does anyone know if the motors on the 810 will be any different to the current motors used on class 80x trains? I love the sound of the current motors so I'm wondering if the 810s will sound the same or different. Cheers

My understanding is that they are not the same, but of higher output. There are to be 4 powered bogies / 8 traction motors, as the design top speed is 125mph as opposed to the 140 of the 80x.

My understanding is that they are not the same, but of higher output. There are to be 4 powered bogies / 8 traction motors, as the design top speed is 125mph as opposed to the 140 of the 80x.

Indeed, traction motors only on the 2nd and 4th vehicles. The motors will be the same Hitachi air-cooled copper rotor induction motors but I'm not sure whether they are the 226kW (80x) or 250kW (385) ones.

..British Rail Class 810 'Aurora' bi-mode multiple units', being constructed by Hitachi Rail for East Midlands Railway (EMR), traction motors are rated at 290 kW (1404 V, 140 Hz). Those numbers I got from the official source, but since I couldn't find / get all the data on those traction motors, I guess they could be a derivative of the:

…1) Hitachi Rail / Kawasaki Heavy Industries Rolling Stock Co. E5/H5 Series Shinkansen, EMU-10 HST's 3-phase Forced Air Ventilated Hitachi Copper Rotor IM MT207, rated at 300 kW / 402 hp / 408 PS.

…2) Hitachi Rail Italy S.p.A. Blues EMU-4, tri-mode train, Serial Hybrid drivetrain (Masaccio platform) on which the traction is provided by 3-phase Forced Air Ventilated Hitachi Copper Rotor IM rated at 375 kW / 503 hp / 510 PS.

…3) Hitachi Rail BR Class 800 Series (800-810) AT300 A-train (for the Intercity Express Programme) on which the traction is obtained by 3-phase Open Air Ventilated Hitachi Copper Rotor IM rated at 226 kW / 303 hp / 307 PS respectively Hitachi Rail BR Class 385 AT200 A-train on which the traction motors are 3-phase Open Air Ventilated Hitachi Copper Rotor IM rated at 250 kW / 335 hp / 340 PS (those two traction motors are of the same size / dimensions).

Legend:

D - driving cab; P - pantograph; T - trailer car; M - motor car; b - bogie; c - car; d - diesel engine; e - electric motor; DEMU - Diesel-Electric Mode; EMU - Electric Mode; S - standard class; C - composite (standard & first class); F - first class
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Type: BR Class 810 'Aurora' bi-mode multiple unit

Train configuration: 5-car / 2M3T

Wheel arrangement: 2-2 + Bo-Bo + 2-2 + Bo-Bo + 2-2

Formation: DPTS(d) + M(d+e)S + TS + M(d+e)C + DPTF(d)

Electric system: 25 kV 50 Hz AC OHLE

Installed power: 4c x 1d x 736 kW + 2c x 4e (4b x 2e) x 290 kW

….▪ 2.944 kW / 3.948 hp / 4.003 PS (DEMU) + 2.320 kW / 3.111 hp / 3.154 PS (EMU)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MTU Series 1600 Power Pack main machines for BR Class 810 'Aurora' are:

.....● MTU 12V 1600 R91, 4-stroke, turbocharged, diesel engine (eng. architecture: 90°V 12-cylinder; eng. displacement: 21.042 ccm / 1.284,1 cu in * bore: 122,0 mm / 4,8 in, stroke: 150,0 mm / 5,9 in), CR: 17,5:1, rated at 736 kW / 987 hp / 1.001 PS at 1.900 rpm

.....● Traktionssysteme Austria GmbH (TSA) TGE 59A-43-4 (736 kW / 987 hp / 1.001 PS at 1.900 rpm; 2.100 V; 214 A; 62,9 Hz), 3-phase traction alternator


On the Hitachi British Rail Class 802 bi-mode multiple unit, on which the traction is provided by 12 / 20 three-phase Hitachi Copper Rotor IM rated at 226 kW / 303 hp / 307 PS, MTU Series 1600 Power Pack main machines are:

.....● MTU 12V 1600 R80LP, 4-stroke, turbocharged, diesel engine (eng. architecture: 90°V 12-cylinder; eng. displacement: 21.042 ccm / 1.284,1 cu in * bore: 122,0 mm / 4,8 in, stroke: 150,0 mm / 5,9 in), CR: 17,5:1, rated at 700 kW / 939 hp / 952 PS at 1.900 rpm

.....● Traktionssysteme Austria GmbH (TSA) TGE 59-43-4 (700 kW / 939 hp / 952 PS at 1.900 rpm; 1.950 V; 214 A; 62,7 Hz), 3-phase traction alternator


..Just for the comparison ...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Type: GWR Class 802/0 bi-mode multiple unit

Train configuration: 5-car / 3M2T

Formation: DPTS + M(d+e)S + M(d+e)S + M(d+e)C + DPTF

Wheel arrangement: 2-2 + 3 x Bo-Bo + 2-2

Electric system: 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead

Installed power: 3c x 1d x 700 kW + 3c x 4e (6b x 2e) x 226 kW

….▪ 2.100 kW / 2.816 hp / 2.855 PS (DEMU) + 2.712 kW / 3.637 hp / 3.687 PS (EMU)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Type: GWR Class 802/1 bi-mode multiple unit

Train configuration: 9-car / 5M4T

Formation: DPTS + M(d+e)S + M(d+e)S + TS + M(d+e)S + TS + M(d+e)S + M(d+e)F + DPTF

Wheel arrangement: 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2 + Bo-Bo + 2-2 + 2 x Bo-Bo + 2-2

Electric system: 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead

Installed power: 5c x 1d x 700 kW + 5c x 4e (10b x 2e) x 226 kW

….▪ 3.500 kW / 4.694 hp / 4.759 PS (DEMU) + 4.520 kW / 6.061 hp / 6.145 PS (EMU)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* the sum of these powers: DEMU and EMU represents the total installed power, however the power that can be transferred (in the different modes) to the driving axles is limited by the power of the traction electric motors


More on the Hitachi Rail BR Class 800 Series (800-810) AT300 A-trains (for the IEP) in the database.

...Kind regards

.....Mario

 

[liamf656]

Any interior photos yet? seems to be nothing.

I believe the only finished unit has no interior fittings yet which would be why

 

[LowLevel]

There are vehicles with fitted out interiors, but no photos permitted yet. EMR managers and union reps have been to see them and give feedback.

The test unit at RIDC Melton (Old Dalby) has no interior as it's easier to load ballast on to it to simulate loadings without it, apparently.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I made a thread a little while ago about the merits of vending machines on trains - in leau of a buffet section (which is rarely open on EMR services these days), I think a couple of vending machines would be a nice touch - possible to do hot, cold food and drink from modern units. Beer might be a challenge given age verification though.

My heart sank when I found that was the only offering on the Sudostbahn branded trains operating the "Panoramic" Gotthard Line, but they were actually very good - the machines worked, and had a good range of snacks and drinks ' -even proper tea. So it can be done

 

[QSK19]

My heart sank when I found that was the only offering on the Sudostbahn branded trains operating the "Panoramic" Gotthard Line, but they were actually very good - the machines worked, and had a good range of snacks and drinks ' -even proper tea. So it can be done

I originally posted a rather strong response on this stating that a vending machine would be an insult for an Intercity service - reflecting the fact that the East Midlands is yet again the poor relation.

Since then, I’ve become somewhat on board with the idea and seen the merit in it; however I still feel it cannot be a replacement for first class catering - first class is a premium service and must come with an at-seat service.

Anyway, on a more OT note, does anybody know if 810001 has run with the pan up yet? Photos and videos up to now seem to be of it running on diesel.

 

[800001]

810002 and 810004 both have interior fitted, not seen 003 so can’t comment but I imagine it will.

 

[baz962]

I originally posted a rather strong response on this stating that a vending machine would be an insult for an Intercity service - reflecting the fact that the East Midlands is yet again the poor relation.

Since then, I’ve become somewhat on board with the idea and seen the merit in it; however I still feel it cannot be a replacement for first class catering - first class is a premium service and must come with an at-seat service.

Anyway, on a more OT note, does anybody know if 810001 has run with the pan up yet? Photos and videos up to now seem to be of it running on diesel.

I can't remember where , might be LinkedIn and seem to remember they have done something with the pan up.
Edit to add.Just checked LinkedIn and they were testing the warning horn and put the train in electric mode to make it quiet as possible as part of the testing.

 

[800001]

I can't remember where , might be LinkedIn and seem to remember they have done something with the pan up.
Edit to add.Just checked LinkedIn and they were testing the warning horn and put the train in electric mode to make it quiet as possible as part of the testing.

Strange as I was told Pan up/ electric testing is scheduled for Mid November.

 

[baz962]

Strange as I was told Pan up/ electric testing is scheduled for Mid November.

Hopefully that works

 

[800001]

Hopefully that works

Yeah seem that, not disputing what is wrote, as person who wrote it is head of fleet introduction at EMR, but from my sources, they were not scheduled to start pan up and electric testing until at least mid November.
So either special dispensation, or testing has been brought forward.

 

[snowball]

Looks like a type of hornet

This is Asian hornet week!

 

[RailWonderer]

Any interior photos yet? seems to be nothing.

At Sheffield in front of the staircase there is a first class bay you can sit at, but all we know about standard is that it will be a variation of the Seat Lumo and Avanti use in their refurbished Pendolinos.

This is Asian hornet week!

It looks far more Japanese than the 80xs and more like the 395. I prefer this look with the tapered side sweeping to the front rather than just a bulb type front.

 

[Owen31]

810002 and 810004 both have interior fitted, not seen 003 so can’t comment but I imagine it will.

810003 does also have its interior fitted

 

[Bletchleyite]

At Sheffield in front of the staircase there is a first class bay you can sit at, but all we know about standard is that it will be a variation of the Seat Lumo and Avanti use in their refurbished Pendolinos.

It's not. It's going to be the FISA LEAN as per the Greater Anglia FLIRTs or the Class 196. Unless of course the plan has changed from what was originally proposed.

It's a reasonable seat but lacks legroom* due to the structure being on the outside rather than inside of the seat back, which better modern designs like the one you mention or even the Sophia resolve.

* Most tall blokes are "scaled up" rather than having a 20-something inch waist, so the niche in the middle is of very limited utility. And most tall people are men.

 

[RailWonderer]

It's not. It's going to be the FISA LEAN as per the Greater Anglia FLIRTs or the Class 196. Unless of course the plan has changed from what was originally proposed.

I thought the FISA lean was the original plan but we’ll see when somebody catches the first unit testing by a platform what seat they went with eventually.

 

[Energy]

I thought the FISA lean was the original plan but we’ll see when somebody catches the first unit testing by a platform what seat they went with eventually.

Last I heard EMR were using a FISA Lean with an improved cushion (done by EMR and DG Design). They did a video on it so I'd be suprised if they changed.

Unfortunately I suspect the Lean's poor table size and average legroom will still be present.

 

[800001]

810003 does also have its interior fitted

Cheers!!

2 carriages from either 002 or 003 went to Pistoria, Italy for climate testing, do you know which unit?

 

[baz962]

Edit

 

[Mzzzs]

Just in . Aurora cab and interior

Legend mate. Thanks for that