Class 84 passenger workings

[CW2]

OK, home now, so time for the class 84 reminiscences (cue wiggly focus and wibble music) ...
Saturday 05/08/72 (or possibly the following day)
I was on an All Line Rover with a school friend. We had fixed the date of the rover to coincide with a trip to Longsight, Reddish, Guide Bridge and Newton Heath depots, organised by the Northern Railfans Club (?). My notes of the day are lost or buried, but I do recall that at Reddish depot there were several class 84 locos in warm storage. They were there awaiting the call for rebuilding / refurbishment (and replacement of those lethal mercury arc rectifiers). I remember at the time being surprised to see them there, as Reddish was the maintenance depot for the DC electric locos used on the Woodhead route, whereas these were AC locos.

I've already written about my other encounters with 84s, so here are the links:

Saturday 11/08/73 84006 Liverpool - Euston
One year on, and I'm on another All Line Rover.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/back-in-the-day.183327/page-50#post-5261974

Sunday 28/03/80 84003 Glasgow - Carlisle
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-84-passenger-workings.227627/

Saturday 23/08/80 84003 Crewe - Carlisle
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/back-in-the-day.183327/page-54#post-5280033

Friday 06/06/80 84003 (but not with me on it!)
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/back-in-the-day.183327/page-31#post-5166927

One that seems to have escaped under the radar of "On This Day" posts:
In the summer of 1980 I was an impoverished ex-student trying to make ends meet by working as a train trolley caterer based at Euston. I had a regular weekend trip from Euston to Llandudno and back on a Saturday, and Euston to Holyhead and back on a Sunday, but with the end of the summer season, those trains had come to a natural end, so I was begging my boss for more work to supplement my wages. He offered me a job working a SLOA Charter starting from Crewe. SO:
87004 0855 Euston - Crewe (positioning move with trolley and supplies).
Then the SLOA charter roared in, with 84003 on the front!
84003 0930 Crewe - Carnforth
We started 10 minutes late, and were 45 minutes late by Carnforth, although I don't know if the 84 was to blame for that. (I was too busy serving "Tea, Coffee and Light Refreshments" to notice.
The steam part of the tour was 6201, and we ran from Carnforth via Wennington and Blackburn to Manchester Victoria, then up Miles Platting Bank and Denton Jn to Stockport, and via Altrincham to Mickle Trafford. There we came horribly unstuck due to binding brakes, and 6201 was unable to restart on the gradient. Eventually 47356 came to assist:
6201 1102 Carnforth - Chester
47356 19xx Mickle Trafford - Chester - Crewe
87002 2051 Crewe - Euston.

So as far as 84s are concerned, I had one run with 84006, and three runs with 84003.

One thing to note is that the 84s sounded quite different to the other Roarers. I wish there was some video (with sound) of them in operation. Any offers?

 

[Revaulx]

Yes, even after their refurbishment and reinstatement in the early seventies. It was pobably not the best of decisions to refurbish them (and the fifteen Class 83s), and build fewer Class 87s.

The 83s were fine once they’d had their mercury arc rectifiers replaced. You’re right about the 84s though; they had a host of other issues that plagued them to the end.

 

[D6130]

OK, home now, so time for the class 84 reminiscences (cue wiggly focus and wibble music) ...
Saturday 05/08/72 (or possibly the following day)
I was on an All Line Rover with a school friend. We had fixed the date of the rover to coincide with a trip to Longsight, Reddish, Guide Bridge and Newton Heath depots, organised by the Northern Railfans Club (?). My notes of the day are lost or buried, but I do recall that at Reddish depot there were several class 84 locos in warm storage. They were there awaiting the call for rebuilding / refurbishment (and replacement of those lethal mercury arc rectifiers). I remember at the time being surprised to see them there, as Reddish was the maintenance depot for the DC electric locos used on the Woodhead route, whereas these were AC locos.

I've already written about my other encounters with 84s, so here are the links:

Saturday 11/08/73 84006 Liverpool - Euston
One year on, and I'm on another All Line Rover.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/back-in-the-day.183327/page-50#post-5261974

Sunday 28/03/80 84003 Glasgow - Carlisle
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-84-passenger-workings.227627/

Saturday 23/08/80 84003 Crewe - Carlisle
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/back-in-the-day.183327/page-54#post-5280033

Friday 06/06/80 84003 (but not with me on it!)
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/back-in-the-day.183327/page-31#post-5166927

One that seems to have escaped under the radar of "On This Day" posts:
In the summer of 1980 I was an impoverished ex-student trying to make ends meet by working as a train trolley caterer based at Euston. I had a regular weekend trip from Euston to Llandudno and back on a Saturday, and Euston to Holyhead and back on a Sunday, but with the end of the summer season, those trains had come to a natural end, so I was begging my boss for more work to supplement my wages. He offered me a job working a SLOA Charter starting from Crewe. SO:
87004 0855 Euston - Crewe (positioning move with trolley and supplies).
Then the SLOA charter roared in, with 84003 on the front!
84003 0930 Crewe - Carnforth
We started 10 minutes late, and were 45 minutes late by Carnforth, although I don't know if the 84 was to blame for that. (I was too busy serving "Tea, Coffee and Light Refreshments" to notice.
The steam part of the tour was 6201, and we ran from Carnforth via Wennington and Blackburn to Manchester Victoria, then up Miles Platting Bank and Denton Jn to Stockport, and via Altrincham to Mickle Trafford. There we came horribly unstuck due to binding brakes, and 6201 was unable to restart on the gradient. Eventually 47356 came to assist:
6201 1102 Carnforth - Chester
47356 19xx Mickle Trafford - Chester - Crewe
87002 2051 Crewe - Euston.

So as far as 84s are concerned, I had one run with 84006, and three runs with 84003.

One thing to note is that the 84s sounded quite different to the other Roarers. I wish there was some video (with sound) of them in operation. Any offers?

Excellent! Thanks for taking the trouble to look out those moves and type them up. I think we now have conclusive evidence that 84s did work passenger trains from time to time....even if it wasn't all that often.

 

[Strathclyder]

Another thread on the Roarers - excellent! - and primarily focusing on the 84s to boot. They have always been the Roarer that I've found to be the most fascinating (out of a fascinating group of electric locos as a whole): from the spoked wheels (in line with NBL's mainline diesels), flaky reliabilty (even after being refurbished), comparatively short service life and 84001's status in preservation as the sole-surviving mainline non-steam North British product.

I travelled as a youth on a couple of relief trains from Glasgow to Carlisle and back about 1981ish - unfortunately I did not take note of loco classes then so I always wonder if I had an 82, 83 or 84! Sadly I'll never know.

The 84s were all withdrawn from frontline service by the end of 1980, so it wouldn't have been one of those. I'd wager on it being a mix of 81s, 82s, 83s & 85s. Not at all conclusive, I know, but it's something lol

One thing to note is that the 84s sounded quite different to the other Roarers. I wish there was some video (with sound) of them in operation. Any offers?

I'm intruiged by this; how did the 84s differ sound-wise from the other Roarers? I'm curious enough to also wish that some video with audio of them in operation was readily available, or audio recordings failing that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Just 84001 for me and that only on a rail tour, namely the LCGB Three Lochs Railtour on 17th Jun 1978 from Preston to Mossend and return.

(My notes also record 40031 on this from Earlestown to Preston, although Six Bells and RailGen have this as 40013. Motherlist is silent, but has 40031 at Preston on that day. Hmm).

Loco was 40031 from Liverpool to Preston and return. I joined at St. Helens Junction.

After Mossend, 20049 + 20100 took the tour to Crianlarich & return, whilst 27010 shunted the stock at Crianlarich, with passengers on board.
LCGB North West Brranch ran some great tours in those days, until things got too expensive.
I managed haulage by 7 different Class 84s, but they were elusive. It would take too long to find all the details.

 

[jfollows]

OK, home now, so time for the class 84 reminiscences (cue wiggly focus and wibble music) ...
Saturday 05/08/72 (or possibly the following day)
I was on an All Line Rover with a school friend. We had fixed the date of the rover to coincide with a trip to Longsight, Reddish, Guide Bridge and Newton Heath depots, organised by the Northern Railfans Club (?). My notes of the day are lost or buried, but I do recall that at Reddish depot there were several class 84 locos in warm storage. They were there awaiting the call for rebuilding / refurbishment (and replacement of those lethal mercury arc rectifiers). I remember at the time being surprised to see them there, as Reddish was the maintenance depot for the DC electric locos used on the Woodhead route, whereas these were AC locos.

Reddish had a wheel lathe whereas Longsight didn't, so it wasn't uncommon to see AC electrics (and other things) in Reddish Depot for work on their wheels and tyres. When Reddish Depot closed the wheel lathe was moved to Longsight, to the side where the Freightliner Depot used to be and the future (but not really) Eurostar shed. Probably still there today.

 

[CW2]

I'm intrigued by this; how did the 84s differ sound-wise from the other Roarers? I'm curious enough to also wish that some video (or failing that, audio recordings) of them in operation was readily available.

It was something to do with the actual notes of the chord made by the various fans whirring. My particular memory is of 28/03/80 when the 1515 Glasgow - Carlisle was 84003. We were walking along the curved platform at Glasgow Central with the locomotive hidden from view, but this weird aural cacophony emitting from just out of sight. None of us could work out what on earth it was. Only when it came into sight did we realise it was an 84.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Loco was 40031 from Liverpool to Preston and return. I joined at St. Helens Junction.

After Mossend, 20049 + 20100 took the tour to Crianlarich & return, whilst 27010 shunted the stock at Crianlarich, with passengers on board.
LCGB North West Brranch ran some great tours in those days, until things got too expensive.
I managed haulage by 7 different Class 84s, but they were elusive. It would take too long to find all the details.

Thanks. Excellent news as I didn't have 031 again.

I bailed the tour at Springburn to do some spotting and rejoined in Glasgow for the return.

 

[Strathclyder]

It was something to do with the actual notes of the chord made by the various fans whirring. My particular memory is of 28/03/80 when the 1515 Glasgow - Carlisle was 84003. We were walking along the curved platform at Glasgow Central with the locomotive hidden from view, but this weird aural cacophony emitting from just out of sight. None of us could work out what on earth it was. Only when it came into sight did we realise it was an 84.

Ah I see. Certainly something I wish I could've heard for myself, as the chances of 84001 being returned to operating condition is slim to nonexistent at best (as much as I'd love to see it happen personally).

One has to wonder in light of this, did all 10 84s make it to Glasgow under their own power in BR service after electrification reached Glasgow? Of course, they were built in Springburn, but barring that, they seemed to be rare visitors to Glasgow when compared to the other Roarers.

 

[CW2]

Thinking about it a little more, the biggest difference was that 84s roared when stationary. The other Roarers were largely silent when waiting to depart, and the full range of roaring noises would only start when movement was engaged. With the 84s they would be roaring when at a standstill. That was quite alarming if you were accustomed to Roaring = start of movement.

...and slightly off topic, the most outrageous pairing of electric locos on a freight service must have been 84010 piloting 87101 from Warrington to Mossend on a Speedlink service. I imagine the 87 was hauling the train and pushing the 84 most of the way!

 

[xotGD]

I managed haulage by 7 different Class 84s,

That is very impressive!

 

[Mag_seven]

I wish there was some video (with sound) of them in operation. Any offers?

I found this video of the BR "Mobile Load Bank" formally 84009. Unfortunately the noise of the attached 31 drowns most of the 84 noise out but the clearest 84 sound can be heard about the 4 min mark. There is some discussion about the noise in the comments section.

 

[GS250]

I believe the AL4s were also the least powerful of the AC fleet although they were still rated at 100mph. I think from the offset the majority of workings were on parcels, freight and secondary passenger services.

I just about remember seeing an 82 on a freight (as a child) but sadly can't recall any 84s.

 

[tbwbear]

I believe the AL4s were also the least powerful of the AC fleet although they were still rated at 100mph. I think from the offset the majority of workings were on parcels, freight and secondary passenger services.

Perhaps that happened in practice, but IIRC in the initial period from 1960 (and even a while after 1966) all the AL1-6 locomotives formed a common pool.

Again IIRC, an AL4 hauled the first ever AC electric service from Manchester Piccadilly didn't it ?

Be interesting to know how much work they actually did in the initial period in the 60s before storage / rebuilding.

 

[Strathclyder]

Again IIRC, an AL4 hauled the first ever AC electric service from Manchester Piccadilly didn't it ?

That is indeed correct: E3040/84005 was the loco in question; date was 12th September 1960 IIRC.

 

[delt1c]

Summer 77 had an 84 on a mystery tour from Glasgow Central. Only got as far as Polmadie before failing. Not got notes anymore so can’t remember the number or what replaced it

 

[hexagon789]

I believe the AL4s were also the least powerful of the AC fleet although they were still rated at 100mph.

83s had the lowest power rating - 2,940hp full field/2,950hp weak field.

84s were 3,000hp full field/3,080hp weak field, not a huge difference yes but still made them more powerful than the 83s

 

[Whistler40145]

What did the Class 84 Mobile Load Bank test?

 

[ac6000cw]

What did the Class 84 Mobile Load Bank test?

AFAIK it was used for electrical load testing of newly commissioned OHLE i.e. pulling power out of the OHLE and dumping it into resistor banks to dissipate it as heat into the air.

 

[nw1]

The 84s were before my time (just!) and I'm not sure whether I ever saw an 82 or 83. Did the 82s and 83s get regular passenger work, or just freight/specials? Thinking more of the 70s and 80s rather than the early days.

Even the 81s (which I did see) by 1983/84 or so seemed to be restricted to specials and freights, likewise did they get regular passenger work (in the 70s and 80s)?

I travelled as a youth on a couple of relief trains from Glasgow to Carlisle and back about 1981ish - unfortunately I did not take note of loco classes then so I always wonder if I had an 82, 83 or 84! Sadly I'll never know.

Reminds me of the first Cross Country journey I made, 4/12/82 on the 11:05 Portsmouth to Manchester, from Guildford (12:00) to Stafford (15:39).

It definitely got an electric north of Birmingham, but not sure what class. Would have been 85, 86 or 87 though as the 84s were gone by then and 81-83 didn't see this sort of work.

In fact I was a bit confused stepping off the train at Stafford and seeing a loco with pantograph on the front. I think I hadn't grasped the concept of loco changes yet!

 

[jfollows]

The 84s were before my time (just!) and I'm not sure whether I ever saw an 82 or 83. Did the 82s and 83s get regular passenger work, or just freight/specials? Thinking more of the 70s and 80s rather than the early days.

Even the 81s (which I did see) by 1983/84 or so seemed to be restricted to specials and freights, likewise did they get regular passenger work (in the 70s and 80s)?

By the time of my pictures posted earlier (June 1980) it was unusual but clearly not unknown to see classes 82-84 on regular passenger trains. The working timetable at one point noted "Class 81-85 locomotive" for certain trains but it was much more likely to see an 85 than anything else, followed by an 81. I think by that point the relatively poor reliability of the other classes was well known and they'd only be sent out if there was no choice or a particular reason such as getting them to a remote location by working a passenger train. When I saw 84002 back in 1980 I knew it was "rare".
I'm not aware of "known" or "regular" workings for classes 82-84 but there could have been, such as workings by trains from their home depots after they'd (again) been repaired.

 

[nw1]

By the time of my pictures posted earlier (June 1980) it was unusual but clearly not unknown to see classes 82-84 on regular passenger trains. The working timetable at one point noted "Class 81-85 locomotive" for certain trains but it was much more likely to see an 85 than anything else, followed by an 81. I think by that point the relatively poor reliability of the other classes was well known and they'd only be sent out if there was no choice or a particular reason such as getting them to a remote location by working a passenger train. When I saw 84002 back in 1980 I knew it was "rare".
I'm not aware of "known" or "regular" workings for classes 82-84 but there could have been, such as workings by trains from their home depots after they'd (again) been repaired.

OK thanks for that. I don't think I ever saw an 81 on a regular timetabled service in 1983 or 1984, though specials were still quite common at that time and I think they were allocated to Motorail services too.

I could ask about 85s vs 86s (which is something I've always wondered about) but I think another thread is the best place for that.

 

[GS250]

83s had the lowest power rating - 2,940hp full field/2,950hp weak field.

84s were 3,000hp full field/3,080hp weak field, not a huge difference yes but still made them more powerful than the 83s

I stand to be corrected then.

I can image the Euston to Aberystwyth service would have been a fair candidate for a 'roarer' of some description? This was usually made up of a rake of Mk1s even into the mid-late 1980s. Maybe it wasn't classified as an 'Intercity' service?

 

[nw1]

I stand to be corrected then.

I can image the Euston to Aberystwyth service would have been a fair candidate for a 'roarer' of some description? This was usually made up of a rake of Mk1s even into the mid-late 1980s. Maybe it wasn't classified as an 'Intercity' service?

Was this a regular service or summer-only? Interesting it was Mk1s as presumably it would have been an extension of the hourly Wolverhampton service, for which Mk-IIs and Mk-IIIs might have been expected. Or perhaps it was an extra to the normal pattern?

 

[hexagon789]

Was this a regular service or summer-only? Interesting it was Mk1s as presumably it would have been an extension of the hourly Wolverhampton service, for which Mk-IIs and Mk-IIIs might have been expected. Or perhaps it was an extra to the normal pattern?

At some point it was Summer Saturdays only, and had a symmetrical Mk1 formation usually worked in Wales by double 25s.

In the later years it was Mk2 air-cons and usually a 37/4 on the non-electrified section. Iirc the low ETH output of the 37/4s meant the rake had to be split with only the leading 4 coaches working through to Aberystwyth(?).

 

[gg1]

At some point it was Summer Saturdays only, and had a symmetrical Mk1 formation usually worked in Wales by double 25s.

In the later years it was Mk2 air-cons and usually a 37/4 on the non-electrified section. Iirc the low ETH output of the 37/4s meant the rake had to be split with only the leading 4 coaches working through to Aberystwyth(?).

As a young 'spotter between 1988 and 1990 I recall two different types of formations for the Euston to Aberystwyth services, the first being the standard Euston-Brum formation of mk2E/F and with mk3 buffet car with the second consisting of NSE liveried mk1 and/or mk2 A-C stock. I never travelled further than Shrewsbury on one (usually behind a 47 which was swapped for a 37/4 at Shrewsbury) but it seems logical to not send the full set to Aberystwyth.

 

[GS250]

Also...the Euston to Northampton 'cobbler' services were prime candidates for a 'roarer'. However they may have been too late for a class 84?

 

[jfollows]

Also...the Euston to Northampton 'cobbler' services were prime candidates for a 'roarer'. However they may have been too late for a class 84?

No (that's to say, no, not too late for a class 84), 1B06 17:27 Euston-Northampton from 3/5/76 to 1/5/77 working timetable attached.
Column note "May convey 455 tonnes - 81-85" I realise I chopped off. Purpose of this note is that it says that if the train is hauled by a class 81-85 locomotive then it can convey up to 13 coaches whereas the normal rules at the time (from a table at the front of the WTT) limited 81-85 to 315 tonnes (9 coaches) on a E455 load.
So the WTT didn't mandate or guarantee a class 81-85 but implied that it was quite likely.

Some old discussion in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-ac-electrics-classes-80-85-86-87.214157/page-7 and #183 e.g.

Although I had some experience of class 84 failures on the 'Cobbler' services to be fair to NBL the cause always seemed to be electrical - the symptom being the roarer no longer roaring, particularly after a neutral section - rather than mechanical.
The problem with NBL diesels seemed to be the construction of MAN designed engines requiring high accuracy in machining and fitting using a workforce used to steam loco tolerances of fit.

 

[hexagon789]

As a young 'spotter between 1988 and 1990 I recall two different types of formations for the Euston to Aberystwyth services, the first being the standard Euston-Brum formation of mk2E/F and with mk3 buffet car with the second consisting of NSE liveried mk1 and/or mk2 A-C stock. I never travelled further than Shrewsbury on one (usually behind a 47 which was swapped for a 37/4 at Shrewsbury) but it seems logical to not send the full set to Aberystwyth.

I remember seeing a few pictures of NSE Mk1s on Aberystwyth runs, I'd need to look at some timetables but perhaps at some point there were either more than one through service to Euston or there was a regular all week run with Air-Con stock and then the Mk1s did a summer Saturday additional?

 

[jfollows]

From the timetables I have:
1J24 10:10 Euston-Aberystwyth SO 26 May 1979 to 22 Sep 1979 Mark 1 VB 100mph stock. 1G25 air conditioned stock SX and other Saturdays to Birmingham.
1J24 10:10 Euston-Aberystwyth SO 28 May and 4 Jun and from 16 Jul to 3 Sep 1983 Mark 1 VB 100mph stock. To Shrewsbury only SO 11 Jun to 9 Jul, 10 Sep & 19 Sep 1983 Mark 1 VB 100 mph stock. 1G25 air conditioned stock SX and other Saturdays to Birmingham.