Class 86/2s and 87s in the 2000s

[Merseyrailfan]

Surprised that Class 87s still were operating as late 2006.It was probably that Virgin Trains having sent 90s to East Anglia, wanted a secondary fleet of 87s in the short term to stay, in case of Pendolino failures.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

When was 86/2 and 87s allowed to do 110 mph.

Weren’t 87s when introduced only allowed to go 100?

 

[sprinterguy]

When was 86/2 and 87s allowed to do 110 mph.

Weren’t 87s when introduced only allowed to go 100?

The 110mph services on the West Coast commenced in May 1984, after the class 87s had their original cross-arm pantographs replaced with Brecknell Willis high speed ones.

As far as I can recall, only the three class 86/1s, and a handful of class 86/2s during the 1990s, were capable of 110mph operation within that class.

 

[Ken H]

The 110mph services on the West Coast commenced in May 1984, after the class 87s had their original cross-arm pantographs replaced with Brecknell Willis high speed ones.

As far as I can recall, only the three class 86/1s, and a handful of class 86/2s during the 1990s, were capable of 110mph operation within that class.

Didnt 110mph have to wait for enough Mk3's to make complete trains with a BG. Mk2's could not be made to run at 110mph.k

 

[43096]

Weren’t 87s when introduced only allowed to go 100?

The West Coast’s first 110mph services were from the May 1984 timetable. Class 87s were upgraded to operate that, although not all were completed for the launch. The primary modification was the change of pantograph to the Brecknell-Willis high-speed type.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

When did Pendolino start to operate to Glasgow?

 

[sprinterguy]

When did Pendolino start to operate to Glasgow?

January 2004.

 

[Iskra]

Surprised that Class 87s still were operating as late 2006.It was probably that Virgin Trains having sent 90s to East Anglia, wanted a secondary fleet of 87s in the short term to stay, in case of Pendolino failures.

Class 87's operated the Caledonian Sleeper under the current Serco Franchise, just before the Mk3's were withdrawn- so relatively recently.

 

[hexagon789]

When was 86/2 and 87s allowed to do 110 mph.

Weren’t 87s when introduced only allowed to go 100?

When the 87s were introduced, 100mph was the maximum in Great Britain.

Only the ECML (England only), WCML (England and Scotland), the GEML Shenfield-Ipswich and the GWML permitted 100mph.

Other mainlines were 90 or less.

Didnt 110mph have to wait for enough Mk3's to make complete trains with a BG. Mk2's could not be made to run at 110mph.k

There were enough Mk3s, but there weren't enough modified 87s with the Brecknell-Willis high-speed pantographs.

Two Euston/Glasgow trains each way were timed for 110mph from the May 1984 timetable.

This was increased to all Euston/Glasgow trains the following year.

In 1989, other WCML trains were also timed for 110mph as the non-Glasgow sets were remarshalled to form all Mk3 or 2F sets. All Manchester Pullman, plus the Up oonly Birmingham Pullman were timed for 110mph now.

Later all Mk3 booked services to Manchester, Liverpool and were nominally booked for 110mph but at some point the Glasgow services were downgraded briefly when BR re-evaluated those services as being more leisure than business orientated and decided it wasn't worth the costs of double manning.

I don't think that lasted very long, before the agreement for single manning at up to 110mph came in and the Glasgows were re-accelerated except for one working each way (usually 14xx off Glasgow) which conveyed Motorail vans and was thus 100mph max.

 

[43096]

Didnt 110mph have to wait for enough Mk3's to make complete trains with a BG. Mk2's could not be made to run at 110mph.k

There were enough Mark 3s from the late 1970s - once the RUBs were delivered.

 

[Ken H]

When the 87s were introduced, 100mph was the maximum in Great Britain.

Only the ECML (England only), WCML (England and Scotland), the GEML Shenfield-Ipswich and the GWML permitted 100mph.

Other mainlines were 90 or less.


There were enough Mk3s, but there weren't enough modified 87s with the Brecknell-Willis high-speed pantographs.

Two Euston/Glasgow trains each way were timed for 110mph from the May 1984 timetable.

This was increased to all Euston/Glasgow trains the following year.

In 1989, other WCML trains were also timed for 110mph as the non-Glasgow sets were remarshalled to form all Mk3 or 2F sets. All Manchester Pullman, plus the Up oonly Birmingham Pullman were timed for 110mph now.

Later all Mk3 booked services to Manchester, Liverpool and were nominally booked for 110mph but at some point the Glasgow services were downgraded briefly when BR re-evaluated those services as being more leisure than business orientated and decided it wasn't worth the costs of double manning.

I don't think that lasted very long, before the agreement for single manning at up to 110mph came in and the Glasgows were re-accelerated except for one working each way (usually 14xx off Glasgow) which conveyed Motorail vans and was thus 100mph max.

Thanks for that
Worth noting 110 WCML running was part of a package including new curving rules. Certain curves had their speed limits raised to allow a lateral acceleration of .9g rather than the usual .7g. (Think i have the numbers right) there was no safety implication. Just that passengers were pushed sideways a littme more.
There was also some changes to the cant of the rails for higher speed in some locations.

Did 110mph running have signalling implications of did the disc brakes on Mk3s stop the train from 110 in the same distance the tread brakes on a mk2 set would from 100?

 

[hexagon789]

There were enough Mark 3s from the late 1970s - once the RUBs were delivered.

Indeed - people often seem to forget/overlook/not realise that the LHCS Mk3s were in service before the WR HSTs.

Thanks for that
Worth noting 110 WCML running was part of a package including new curving rules. Certain curves had their speed limits raised to allow a lateral acceleration of .9g rather than the usual .7g. (Think i have the numbers right) there was no safety implication. Just that passengers were pushed sideways a littme more.
There was also some changes to the cant of the rails for higher speed in some locations.

Did 110mph running have signalling implications of did the disc brakes on Mk3s stop the train from 110 in the same distance the tread brakes on a mk2 set would from 100?

The Northern ECML has the same approach with higher can't deficiency to permit higher curving speeds.

An HST with failed E70 brake unit was still permitted 110mph, so the LHCS Mk3s would be able to achieve the same braking distances.

As I mentioned in another thread, soon after introduction the Mk3As had their distributor settings altered to a 6%g braking rate to match the tread braked Mk1s and 2s they ran with, as at the higher rate they were doing most of the braking effort and wearing out pads more quickly.

Once 110mph running was being planned for, the Mk3s had their distributors set back to the 9%g braking rate.

 

[nw1]

The 110mph services on the West Coast commenced in May 1984, after the class 87s had their original cross-arm pantographs replaced with Brecknell Willis high speed ones.

Indeed, I think this has come up before and was, I believe, the cause of the significant recast of the Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool axis that year, with the previous xx55-ish slot out of Birmingham no longer adhered to every hour, replaced by a rather random pattern IIRC.

(EDIT: I see it was only 2 trains so maybe not)

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for that
Worth noting 110 WCML running was part of a package including new curving rules. Certain curves had their speed limits raised to allow a lateral acceleration of .9g rather than the usual .7g. (Think i have the numbers right) there was no safety implication. Just that passengers were pushed sideways a littme more.
There was also some changes to the cant of the rails for higher speed in some locations.

I remember the package - the North Staffordshire route (Colwich to Cheadle Hulme) had been given a blanket 85mph speed limit since electrification, but this changed to - I think - 95mph at the time, it's now also got EPS up to 125 in places, so this first change either allowed speeding services up or making the existing timetable more robust. I remember the stencil speed limits at the time - 100 at Edgeley Junction Number 1 (moved up subsequently for signal sighting reasons) and the 85 after Cheadle Hulme.

 

[route101]

January 2004.

One service in each direction intially. By the end of the year all services were 390s.

 

[Taunton]

For all that the detailed changes are described above, those of us with longer memories have described on here previously how it was in 1966-67 right after electrification, in the days before speed recorders and such like, when some spectacular runs with Class 86 were achieved. Euston to Coventry in less than an hour, sometimes several minutes less, getting quite close to the current 125mph Pendolino timing of 54 minutes. Notably without any history of dewirements or signal overruns. Bear in mind this was with Mk1 stock and vacuum brakes, albeit just a few years old and with Commonwealth/B4 bogies. It was all well known and appeared in Cecil J Allen's magazine logs of the time. I do believe that after a while some of the enthusiasm (as it was viewed then) was clamped down on. The old guys, many on the line at the time having been there since before WW2, most of the time without speedometers, knew what they were doing.

 

[jfollows]

A bit earlier than the thread title, for sure, but I used to go home from school on 1G61 16:23 Manchester Piccadilly-Coventry. 21 minutes to Macclesfield, 16:44 arrival, run over the footbridge and down the slope and across the road to the bus station (as was) for the 16:45 bus home to Bollington. Probably achieved 2 out of 3 times attempted.
That was 1977 to 1980.
I once went home on it when there was a 20mph temporary slack between Bramhall and Poynton due to the oil sidings being removed. No flashing yellows at the time, and I'm sure we couldn't have stopped at the approach release from red prior to the junction at Cheadle Hulme, but it cleared to green as always, then 45mph over the junction. Back up to 85mph, then slowed for the 20mph slack after Bramhall, and somehow we still made it to Macclesfield in 21 minutes. Maybe some liberal interpretation of speed limits?
20 minutes nowadays with Pendolino stock and enhanced speed limits.
86 + 5x Mark1 VB.

 

[Helvellyn]

Another possible factor in why speeds started to ease was the hammering the 86s with unsprung traction motors were giving to the track. A rougher ride and potentially TSRs would both contribute.