Class 91 hauling HST stock

[marks87]

I'm currently sitting on an EC HST which will now be under the wires all the way to Kings Cross and it made me think of something I'm sure happened years ago.

I was travelling from York to Dundee on the GNER service to Aberdeen. And I'm convinced that until Edinburgh, it had a 91 on the front and 43 on the rear. A 43 then took over at the front for the final leg with no wires.

Now I know that when the 91s first arrived, they did so before the MK.4 stock was ready, so BR converted several 43s to act as DVTs with Mk.3 stock. But according to the Wikipedia article (salt, pinch of, I know), these were "conventional" Mk.3s, which I assume means loco-hauled as opposed to HST.

So basically -- is what I recall happening possible, i.e. a class 91 propelling an HST set in place of the front (or I suppose rear) power car? (I know that a 91 can pull a stricken set, in front of a power car - there's a video on YouTube somewhere...)

 

[E&W Lucas]

So basically -- is what I recall happening possible, i.e. a class 91 propelling an HST set in place of the front (or I suppose rear) power car? (

No. What a 91 can work push - pull with has been done to death on here before.

 

[simon7929]

I have seen a 91 dragging a HST. The rear power car was still running which i suspect was for heating and lighting reasons. I remember seeing another driver sat in the cab of the rear power car too.

 

[Schnellzug]

According to the 125 Group here --> http://www.125group.org.uk/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=7, they used HST sets.

 

[Yew]

I think that when they ran the HST and the 91, there was impressive acceleration. I wonder if two 91's could out-accelerate a pendolino?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I have seen a 91 dragging a HST. The rear power car was still running which i suspect was for heating and lighting reasons. I remember seeing another driver sat in the cab of the rear power car too.

I wish some on here would read before they press the submit button!

The question was if a 91 could propel a HST set, ie work push pull with it. The answer is no.

The driver in the rear loco should not have been there. If the automatic fire suppression system had gone off, he would have had a problem!

If dragging a HST, one PC would need to be running, as the ETS system on the 91 is incompatible with a HST

The HST locos which worked in lieu of Mk IV DVT's for a short period, had to be fitted with TDM control equipment for the purpose. Those so fitted have all had this removed.

 

[driver9000]

Now I know that when the 91s first arrived, they did so before the MK.4 stock was ready, so BR converted several 43s to act as DVTs with Mk.3 stock. But according to the Wikipedia article (salt, pinch of, I know), these were "conventional" Mk.3s, which I assume means loco-hauled as opposed to HST

The conventional Mk3 coach designated Mk3a had ordinary buffers and weren't compatible with the HST variant. To enable the 91s to haul the HST sets when they were first delivered some Mk3 TGS coaches were fitted with buffers and drop head buck eye couplers to enable the 91 to couple to them.

 

[rail-britain]

To enable the 91s to haul the HST sets when they were first delivered some Mk3 TGS coaches were fitted with buffers and drop head buck eye couplers to enable the 91 to couple to them.

Discussed before, the buckeye couplings were not modified
The initial batch had buffers and dual RCH cables
It was later discovered that buffers were not required (Class 91 with the buffers in the retracted position)
The last two conversions only had a single RCH cable (making them quite difficult to identify when in normal HST use)

 

[Simon Poole]

They ran 91's with HSTs in the 80's but the HST's back then had buffers

 

[driver9000]

They ran 91's with HSTs in the 80's but the HST's back then had buffers

Only a few power cars were adapted to act as DVTs and they were the ones that had (and still have) buffers fitted. The rest of the fleet had the full skirted front without buffers. The surrogate DVTs were used during the testing period of the 91s in 1988/1989.

In one of the Youtube clips of the BBC Railwatch series from 1989 the HST they film from the cab on passes one of the test workings around Retford.

 

[Schnellzug]

Grand Central use converted loco hualed mk3s in their HST sets, don't they? (As well as most of the buffer fitted power cars, but that's probably coincidental). Isn't the main difference the ETS supply?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I was surprised last November to see an EC '225' set with two 91's. They were both at the Country end and only the outermost had it pan up.
So, in answer to the OP's question, I guess I can say I've seen a 91 drag a 91 (plus full rake of coaches and DVT) and all this in passenger service.

 

[NightatLaira]

I was surprised last November to see an EC '225' set with two 91's. They were both at the Country end and only the outermost had it pan up.
So, in answer to the OP's question, I guess I can say I've seen a 91 drag a 91 (plus full rake of coaches and DVT) and all this in passenger service.

I've been on a GNER service circa 2003 with two 91s, both at the London end, the front one travelling blunt end first (with the two slanted noses touching each other), the rear one dead in tow with the pantgraph down. It was a very bizarre sight, but very much welcomed. The journey felt no different although we obv arrived in a bit late (max speed was lower than normal).

I have also seen a Virgin Cross Country service circa 2002, 47 hauled + MK3s + MK3 DVT (WCML style) - but this service was on an Edinburgh Wav - to Bristol TM XC routing through York.

I too have also seen drivers/staff sitting in the end of an HST cab whilst in service - is this definitely not allowed? Is there no overide to the automatic fire suppression system from the rear car?

 

[driver9000]

Discussed before, the buckeye couplings were not modified
The initial batch had buffers and dual RCH cables

British Rail working instructions for the HST (BR33069/2) dated June 1989 states that the modified TGS coaches were fitted with drop head buck eye couplings and even includes a diagram.

 

[rail-britain]

I too have also seen drivers/staff sitting in the end of an HST cab whilst in service - is this definitely not allowed? Is there no overide to the automatic fire suppression system from the rear car?

Very rare to have a driver also at the rear, more likely to be a travelling technician and watching the controls from prior reports of some issue
Used to have one that travelled with us between Edinburgh and Newcastle quite often (InterCity East Coast in the early 1990s)
The driver had to be made aware that he was travelling in the rear cab
Quite often he would leave the rear cab at Berwick and then sit in First Class to Newcastle

 

[DarloRich]

Is the traction inspector/travelling fitter/chief engineer/technical person not able to sit in the rear cab to monitor the equipment?

 

[FCC313]

Saw the fitter part of Railwatch (?) on the BBC when the fitter gets in the rear power car at York, on the episode with an Intercity HST run up the ECML, so yes, is poshibell.

 

[marks87]

Sorry, completely forgot to reply to this.

It was in the GNER era I remember it happening, so well after the days of class 43s being surrogate DVTs. Perhaps the 91 was towing the whole set (front power car and all) because of a failure, and the switch-over at Edinburgh was either swapping the power cars, or bringing in a new front one.

It was about 12 years ago now, and I was only 12 myself at the time so it's likely my memory of it has been blurred somewhat!

 

[sprinterguy]

Sorry, completely forgot to reply to this.

It was in the GNER era I remember it happening, so well after the days of class 43s being surrogate DVTs. Perhaps the 91 was towing the whole set (front power car and all) because of a failure, and the switch-over at Edinburgh was either swapping the power cars, or bringing in a new front one.

It was about 12 years ago now, and I was only 12 myself at the time so it's likely my memory of it has been blurred somewhat!

It is funny that you have brought this up as, while I'm as confident as everyone else on this thread that a 91+mark 3+PC formation is pretty much impossible unless one of the surrogate DVTs was being used with TDM equipment fitted for all the reasons stated above, in 1998 I made a record at Newcastle of what at the time appeared to be a 91+43 HST formation heading north.

I've glossed over it ever since as simply an error, as it was at a time of day when there were a lot of comings and goings of GNER services northbound and southbound, and I was moving around the station a lot, so I assumed that as I had walked from the north end of the station with an IC225 present, that it had departed and an HST had arrived without me noticing by the time (my view being blocked by another train) I reached the south end. This latter option seems a lot more likely, but it's strange that two people claim to have seen the same phenomenom at about the same time.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Saw the fitter part of Railwatch (?) on the BBC when the fitter gets in the rear power car at York, on the episode with an Intercity HST run up the ECML, so yes, is poshibell.

How old was that film, as the automatic fire suppression was an in service modification?

The instructions to crews are very clear indeed. No travel in the rear loco, as the fire alarm system is automatic, on the trailing power car. If individuals choose to ignore that directive, that is a matter for them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is funny that you have brought this up as, while I'm as confident as everyone else on this thread that a 91+mark 3+PC formation is pretty much impossible unless one of the surrogate DVTs was being used with TDM equipment fitted for all the reasons stated above, in 1998 I made a record at Newcastle of what at the time appeared to be a 91+43 HST formation heading north.

There is nothing to stop a 91 hauling a HST. It's just an air braked train, after all.

You will see a 91 hauling an entire HST set in a failure situation. What you will not see is a 91 tacked onto a HST set vice a power car.

 

[Darandio]

How old was that film, as the automatic fire suppression was an in service modification?

The instructions to crews are very clear indeed. No travel in the rear loco, as the fire alarm system is automatic, on the trailing power car. If individuals choose to ignore that directive, that is a matter for them.

1990 I believe.

It has to be made clear that the fitter was not just in the cab for a ride out, he was actually diagnosing and repairing a fault on the move.

 

[sprinterguy]

There is nothing to stop a 91 hauling a HST. It's just an air braked train, after all.

So I wonder if it may have happened, unless it is the case that different buckeye couplers are required? The use of the word "propelling" seems to have been poorly used in the opening post, where to most it suggests only the use of a 91 to push an HST rake: If a 91 was used to haul a mark 3 + Power car formation, then as long as the remaining PC on the rear was providing power for lights and auxillary power, perhaps it could be done.

 

[marks87]

What I thought I'd remembered was a formation of 91-Mk3s-43, hence use of the word "propelling".

But it could well have been 91-43-Mk3s-43.

 

[harz99]

So I wonder if it may have happened, unless it is the case that different buckeye couplers are required? The use of the word "propelling" seems to have been poorly used in the opening post, where to most it suggests only the use of a 91 to push an HST rake: If a 91 was used to haul a mark 3 + Power car formation, then as long as the remaining PC on the rear was providing power for lights and auxillary power, perhaps it could be done.

Which of course was exactly what happened when 89001 was first used (and bore the unofficial name of Aardvark). In fact the OP brought back fond memories of this loco working the PBO-KGX commuter services.

 

[driver9000]

1990 I believe.

Close, it was February 1989. I still have it on video somewhere.

 

[DarloRich]

I notice that the railway herald has an article this week about Bounds Green. It suggests, on page 35, that an excercise is being undertaken to look at the potential to replace an HST power car and MKIII rake with an 91 and put an HST power car on a mkIV rake.

http://www.railwayherald.org/magazine/pdf/RHUK/Issue286HIGH.pdf

 

[E&W Lucas]

I notice that the railway herald has an article this week about Bounds Green. It suggests, on page 35, that an excercise is being undertaken to look at the potential to replace an HST power car and MKIII rake with an 91 and put an HST power car on a mkIV rake.

http://www.railwayherald.org/magazine/pdf/RHUK/Issue286HIGH.pdf

Haul a full Mk IV set with a single Cl 43?
I'm not sure that the journalist has got that bit quite right.
A slight horsepower shortage, aside from all the issues regarding ETS and TDM discussed above.

Don't believe everything that you read in magazines!

 

[rail-britain]

I notice that the railway herald has an article this week about Bounds Green. It suggests, on page 35, that an excercise is being undertaken to look at the potential to replace an HST power car and MKIII rake with an 91 and put an HST power car on a mkIV rake

Someone posted an article about this, but suggested a single diesel locomotive was to be used north of Edinburgh

I received the full Press Release from East Coast this morning and it makes more sense now

The proposal is to have flexibility between a Class 91 and HST power car, between both train types
This suggests converting all the HST coaches to standard ETH system first
It would then be possible to remove (or leave the DVT in formation) and use either a Class 91, single HST Power car (thunderbird recovery), or pair of HST Power cars (in lieu of Class 91)
This would then allow much more flexibility
A single HST Power car could be used on short sections under the wires (out and back)
Equally, pairs of HST Power cars could be paired up and used in effect as a single loco (such as north of Edinburgh)

Following on from that is the retention of the Class 91 Mark 4 coaches, if IEP proceeds
In order to increase reliability the sets would have the DVT removed and HST power car utilised

However, this appears to be at just the development stage and a decision is not likely for at least five or six years

 

[marks87]

Class 43s have doubled-up to act as a single loco before, so it could be done in theory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJYbXNy5cWQ

 

[jopsuk]

Why were the HST coaches fitted with a "non standard" ETH system in the first place?