Class 93 Tri-mode Loco

[Dan G]

Jeez, I only asked a question. It appears the answer to my question was "we don't know" but thanks for taking so much of your time to go on the attack both

Indeed!

Yes, often the only source of information is from the company, direct or through the media. Sometimes though staff inside companies share a little extra information here. Some posters don't seem to be aware of that.

 

[ac6000cw]

The August 2023 'Rail Express' magazine has a four page article about the 93's, including an interview with the ROG Engineering Director.

According to the article, testing is underway in Romania (using 93002) for the UK certification requirements, and then once the 93 is allowed to operate on NR further testing will take place on the WCML (using a 93 based at Crewe for the duration).

The 93's will be owned by Rail Operations Assets Ltd (ROAL) - part of the Rail Operations (UK) Ltd group, like ROG and Orion are. The article reads like the plan is to lease/hire as many as possible to other TOCs/FOCs (apparently only 001 to 005 will be ROG liveried).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

The August 2023 'Rail Express' magazine has a four page article about the 93's, including an interview with the ROG Engineering Director.

According to the article, testing is underway in Romania (using 93002) for the UK certification requirements, and then once the 93 is allowed to operate on NR further testing will take place on the WCML (using a 93 based at Crewe for the duration).

The 93's will be owned by Rail Operations Assets Ltd (ROAL) - part of the Rail Operations (UK) Ltd group, like ROG and Orion are. The article reads like the plan is to lease/hire as many as possible to other TOCs/FOCs (apparently only 001 to 005 will be ROG liveried).

What will the other liveries be?

 

[800001]

What will the other liveries be?

Until they appear or are published by ROG, no one will know.

 

[ac6000cw]

What will the other liveries be?

It doesn't say (the implication is that they are 'blank canvases', like white vans are...)

 

[12LDA28C]

What will the other liveries be?

Clearly if another FOC or TOC subleases some 93s then that company's livery would be applied, in a similar manner to the Chiltern 68s leased from DRS (but owned by Beacon Rail)

 

[ExRes]

What will the other liveries be?

How would anyone know? they have to be built and ROAL have to find someone to lease them before any concern about which spray can gets used

 

[Jacob Porrett]

@12LDA28C @ac6000cw @800001 Thank you for the information. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Nottingham59]

the plan is to lease/hire as many as possible to other TOCs/FOCs

Given that the idea for 100mph intermodal flats hasn't worked out, that seems like a very sensible plan. With the promised operating cost advantages over Class 66, I'd expect there to be a ready market at the right price. GBRf clearly understand this, given their order for Class 99s, and might lease 93s as an interim measure. It all depends on whether the 93 can actually deliver the Tractive Effort in their specification on wet rails in autumn

 

[ExRes]

I'm afraid I've lost track after all this time, did ROG actually order the second batch of 20 locos or are they still only part of the original framework contract and remain as options?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Given that the idea for 100mph intermodal flats hasn't worked out, that seems like a very sensible plan. With the promised operating cost advantages over Class 66, I'd expect there to be a ready market at the right price. GBRf clearly understand this, given their order for Class 99s, and might lease 93s as an interim measure. It all depends on whether the 93 can actually deliver the Tractive Effort in their specification on wet rails in autumn

Remembers the BR plan for leasing 25 x 90mph flats off SNCF to run Felixstowe=Dallam-Coatbridge with 10 dropped off at Dallam, and 5 on maintenance at Coatbridge etc.

It was considered not to be financially viable, and would 100mph make any difference to that ?
If DB won't use 90s under the wires they surew as hell won't pay for more expensive 100mph flats - not unless the price can be passed on to the customers

 

[92002]

Given that the idea for 100mph intermodal flats hasn't worked out, that seems like a very sensible plan. With the promised operating cost advantages over Class 66, I'd expect there to be a ready market at the right price. GBRf clearly understand this, given their order for Class 99s, and might lease 93s as an interim measure. It all depends on whether the 93 can actually deliver the Tractive Effort in their specification on wet rails in autumn

That could be part of the plan to test the 93 on WCML on a suitable Intermodal train. Although plans seem to be to operate between Crewe and Carlisle. Perhaps going further to Mossend, Grangemouth or Coatrbridge.

 

[Nottingham59]

I'm afraid I've lost track after all this time, did ROG actually order the second batch of 20 locos or are they still only part of the original framework contract and remain as options?

Just ten firm orders so far. The latest press release (April 2023) mentions "an initial 10" locomotives.

 

[Trainbike46]

Remembers the BR plan for leasing 25 x 90mph flats off SNCF to run Felixstowe=Dallam-Coatbridge with 10 dropped off at Dallam, and 5 on maintenance at Coatbridge etc.

It was considered not to be financially viable, and would 100mph make any difference to that ?
If DB won't use 90s under the wires they surew as hell won't pay for more expensive 100mph flats - not unless the price can be passed on to the customers

100 mph freight trains could have other advantages:
- on some lines, it may be easier to fit between passenger services - allows for more paths (or pathing a service there otherwise wouldn't be space for)
- Higher speeds mean you can run more containers on them in the same amount of time (as more round trips fit within the same amount of time), so even if the lease per month is more, the lease per container transported could be similar (or even cheaper)
- Higher speeds mean more tonne-km/container-km per driver hour

Regarding the BR proposal, 25 container flats seems like not very many?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I vaguely recall Network Rail were considering charging more for slower trains on the Northern end of the WCML. That was because a slow train is taking up more capacity.

 

[43096]

Regarding the BR proposal, 25 container flats seems like not very many?

It was more than a proposal: they actually hired the flats in. I think they were paired Multifret wagons so it was actually 50 flats, which were permanently coupled in pairs.

 

[ac6000cw]

That could be part of the plan to test the 93 on WCML on a suitable Intermodal train. Although plans seem to be to operate between Crewe and Carlisle. Perhaps going further to Mossend, Grangemouth or Coatrbridge.

According to the Rail Express article, the test train for the WCML testing is planned to be Mk3 passenger stock, initially used empty then later with loads added. The loco is 110mph capable hence (I assume) the need to use Mk3s for testing.

 

[The_Train]

Just ten firm orders so far. The latest press release (April 2023) mentions "an initial 10" locomotives.

So 10 to be built, ROG are keeping 5 and looking to sub-lease the other 5? Is there really any operator out there who will have a requirement for such a small fleet of a new loco that their maintenance teams will have to learn? Or are ROG just being cautious and hoping an operator will take a small fleet initially on a test basis with a view to growing that further down the line?

 

[172007]

LSL have a Mk3 rake conveniently based at Crewe.

I immagine with 100mph container flats that most modern types are perfectly capable with regards to bogies and suspension it's the brakes that would requite a redesign. A lot more heat to dissipate and larger braking surface area.

 

[Trainbike46]

So 10 to be built, ROG are keeping 5 and looking to sub-lease the other 5? Is there really any operator out there who will have a requirement for such a small fleet of a new loco that their maintenance teams will have to learn? Or are ROG just being cautious and hoping an operator will take a small fleet initially on a test basis with a view to growing that further down the line?

Presumably ROG could take up the other options if another FOC wanted to lease more locomotives?

 

[The_Train]

Presumably ROG could take up the other options if another FOC wanted to lease more locomotives?

Oh, I think that has always been in the deal that ROG signed up to. I'm really just putting the question out there of would any FOC want to lease a fleet of just 5 locos that they are not familiar with? I guess it's all a bit of trial and error so a steady and cautious approach is being taken by ROG.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Europhoenix are involved in this in any way, or have ROG just gone it alone?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Oh, I think that has always been in the deal that ROG signed up to. I'm really just putting the question out there of would any FOC want to lease a fleet of just 5 locos that they are not familiar with? I guess it's all a bit of trial and error so a steady and cautious approach is being taken by ROG.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Europhoenix are involved in this in any way, or have ROG just gone it alone?

Don't forget that ROG's parent company is STAR and they will be "signing the cheques".
Also we don't know what the terms of the deal are. Is the unit price for ten class 93s more expensive than buying the thirty which were advised to the media as options ?. So if ROG take the first five and another operator signs a deal on the other five, it might prompt STAR to tell Stadler to "carry on" with the build.

We do need to remember that the freight business is far more financially tightly controlled so the fleets should work for the money. So could we see freightcos develop services like Gateway-Wentloog where 93s could work the job throughout ? Obviously the lease charges of 93s + AC power would probably be enormous compared to class 66s + diesel oil under the present. Are the government likely to try and "penalise" operators for running diesel under the wires, at any point in the future ?

 

[Nottingham59]

Obviously the lease charges of 93s + AC power would probably be enormous compared to class 66s + diesel oil.

ROG claimed the 93s have a third of the fuel costs of a 66, and weigh one third less, so much cheaper track charges too.

Once delivered, ROG will set their subleasing prices to ensure the 93s get used. Perhaps with maintenance included.

So I expect the 93s will end up 24/7 pulling intermodals up to around 1500t up and down the WCML, on those flows that have some running off the wires e.g. to London Gateway and the many inland rail freight terminals near the electrified network.

We'll find out soon enough.

 

[Rail Quest]

ROG claimed the 93s have a third of the fuel costs of a 66, and weigh one third less, so much cheaper track charges too.

Regardless of the track charges though, I'm still struggling to see it being any cheaper tbh. Look at both DB and DRS for example. DB 90s completely binned in favour of 66 use on dav-grangemouth/mossend; and DRS have the 88s which I believe way the same (therefore having similar access costs to a 93) yet DRS are barely using them atm on their WCML services. The success or failure of the 93s may well be hit hard by the same electricity costs that have hit the other TOCs

 

[xotGD]

Mk3 passenger stock, initially used empty then later with loads added

In the form of cranks?

Or concrete blocks?

 

[ac6000cw]

In the form of cranks?

Or concrete blocks?

I suspect the latter

 

[315801]

How about humans so that those lucky enough can sample a 93 in readiness for any use on rail tours

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

100 mph freight trains could have other advantages:
- on some lines, it may be easier to fit between passenger services - allows for more paths (or pathing a service there otherwise wouldn't be space for)
- Higher speeds mean you can run more containers on them in the same amount of time (as more round trips fit within the same amount of time), so even if the lease per month is more, the lease per container transported could be similar (or even cheaper)
- Higher speeds mean more tonne-km/container-km per driver hour

Regarding the BR proposal, 25 container flats seems like not very many?

It ain't quite that neat, unfortunately.
1. The FIAs (Eurotwins) had to run on balanced wheelsets;
2. The payload is markedly less. On class C lines (= 20t axleload) the payload allowed at S speed is 107.5t; at SS it is 99.5t, and at 140kph (BR only) it is 75.5t. (Taken from the data panel on the wagon.) In UK terms 107.5t @ 60mph; 99.5t @ 75mph; 75.5t @ 87.5mph. No idea wher you would be for 100mph.
Pat

 

[01d-and]

What will the other liveries be?

Who can tell , but which liveries do people think these new locos will look good in ?

 

[Class15]

Who can tell , but which liveries do people think these new locos will look good in ?

Freightliner G&W would suit them I think!