Class 93 Tri-mode Loco

[ExRes]

Unless anyone can provide better information, I believe the Class 93s will initially be based at Leicester LIP.

Always prepared to be proved wrong but I simply don't see GBRf allowing the 93s into Leicester LIP, it could/would lead to GBRf having their 99 style cramped

 

[cj_1985]

Always prepared to be proved wrong but I simply don't see GBRf allowing the 93s into Leicester LIP, it could/would lead to GBRf having their 99 style cramped

GBRf dont own Leicester LIP, that would be UKRL. However, the Stadler shed was built to specifically cater for the GB class 99 fleet... so they may have grounds to argue for the 93s not to make use of those facilities... if they have part funded the construction of that shed

 

[Wyrleybart]

Always prepared to be proved wrong but I simply don't see GBRf allowing the 93s into Leicester LIP, it could/would lead to GBRf having their 99 style cramped

AIUI Leicester depot is not "owned" or "controlled" by GBRf though is it ? Stadler have the shed for the class 99 contract maintenance etc and UKRL operate Beale St depot. UKRL also carry out contract servicing and CET of Cross Country class 170s. I suspect UKRL also provide some fascilities for ROG and EPX.

 

[Class15]

GBRf’s shed is part of Leicester LIP and there is absolutely no reason why ROG cannot use the rest of Leicester LIP. GBRf have no say in the matter.

 

[Bertie the bus]

As alluded too on another forum, it appears the goal posts for approval continue to be moved by the infrastructure owner, and the class 93’s have not received full approval yet. Hence the 0Qxx headcodes when moving on the network.

I find that very hard to believe (the moving goalposts being the reason for the length of time bit).

Class 93 - first arrived in June 2023, mainline testing didn't commence until May 2024.
Class 99 - first arrived in June 2025, mainline testing due to commence within 1 week of arrival.

 

[themiller]

I find that very hard to believe (the moving goalposts being the reason for the length of time bit).

Class 93 - first arrived in June 2023, mainline testing didn't commence until May 2024.
Class 99 - first arrived in June 2025, mainline testing due to commence within 1 week of arrival.

I wonder if 93001 wasn’t tested as rigorously at Velim as the 99s due to cost saving or capacity constraints.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I find that very hard to believe (the moving goalposts being the reason for the length of time bit).

Class 93 - first arrived in June 2023, mainline testing didn't commence until May 2024.
Class 99 - first arrived in June 2025, mainline testing due to commence within 1 week of arrival.

Strongly suspect it is the regime used by the owner to breing them into service. I have always been struck by how keen GBRf are to get their stuff going. Maybe that the class 99 is basically a UK sized Stadler Eurodual which already has an operational presence and service history on the European mainland. The class 93 on the other hand - does that have a European "forebear" ?

I think GBRf have made their intentions very clear over the role of the class 99, whereas ROG have previously suggested their 93s would replace their class 37s (all they currently have). So you might imagine the Stadlers would be hauling Rosco stock around, but recent comments are that the autocouplers have been removed from those out mainline so far.

 

[D365]

… whereas ROG have previously suggested their 93s would replace their class 37s (all they currently have).

This may have been suggested in the past, but none of the ROG lectures that I have attended in the past 12 months have stated that the Class 93s will displace their Class 37s.

 

[Richard123]

Strongly suspect it is the regime used by the owner to breing them into service. I have always been struck by how keen GBRf are to get their stuff going. Maybe that the class 99 is basically a UK sized Stadler Eurodual which already has an operational presence and service history on the European mainland. The class 93 on the other hand - does that have a European "forebear" ?

I think GBRf have made their intentions very clear over the role of the class 99, whereas ROG have previously suggested their 93s would replace their class 37s (all they currently have). So you might imagine the Stadlers would be hauling Rosco stock around, but recent comments are that the autocouplers have been removed from those out mainline so far.

The first of type battery loco might also have triggered additional testing.

No doubt the class 99 introduction will be aided by class 93 experience, just as class 93 will have been aided by class 88.

Manufacturers often tweak their software based on measurements from testing to mitigate EMC issues or undesired operational behaviours,which can involve trial-and-error, one reason a follow-on order is so much quicker than a new design...

How long did it take to get the 88s into traffic?

 

[Bertie the bus]

How long did it take to get the 88s into traffic?

3 1/2 months from the first loco being delivered to Carlisle until it hauled its first proper train - a DRS hired Northern Belle for bigwigs and hangers on, and full freight service soon afterwards. 2 years and counting for the 93s.

 

[cj_1985]

The first of type battery loco might also have triggered additional testing.

No doubt the class 99 introduction will be aided by class 93 experience, just as class 93 will have been aided by class 88.

Manufacturers often tweak their software based on measurements from testing to mitigate EMC issues or undesired operational behaviours,which can involve trial-and-error, one reason a follow-on order is so much quicker than a new design...

How long did it take to get the 88s into traffic?

How do you work that one out?

 

[Richard123]

How do you work that one out?

Testing throws up compatibility issues, sometimes not found in previous tests, with other equipments.

NR demand changes.

Manufacturer has learned a bit more about UK issues, fixes them but also normally avoids repeat with the next generation.

Sometimes the train order is big enough to switch things round: the first IEPs caused signalling failures across ECML and GWML.

NR ended up funding major infrastructure changes across both routes over several years to reduce susceptibility to the IEP harmonics.

I can't remember a previous train introduction triggering such a scale of retrospective infrastructure works, but most other manufacturers had a long history of experience of delivering similar trains here, except perhaps Stadler? (CAF started off with Siemens traction equipment)...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==

Testing throws up compatibility issues, sometimes not found in previous tests, with other equipments.

NR demand changes.

Manufacturer has learned a bit more about UK issues, fixes them but also normally avoids repeat with the next generation.

Sometimes the train order is big enough to switch things round: the first IEPs caused signalling failures across ECML and GWML.

NR ended up funding major infrastructure changes across both routes over several years to reduce susceptibility to the IEP harmonics.

I can't remember a previous train introduction triggering such a scale of retrospective infrastructure works, but most other manufacturers had a long history of experience of delivering similar trains here, except perhaps Stadler? (CAF started off with Siemens traction equipment)...

I forgot Alstom where the pendolinos triggered substantial works...

 

[norbitonflyer]

I can't remember a previous train introduction triggering such a scale of retrospective infrastructure works,

The power upgrades on the South Western triggered by the Desiros?

 

[D365]

Sometimes the train order is big enough to switch things round: the first IEPs caused signalling failures across ECML and GWML.

The power upgrades on the South Western triggered by the Desiros?

And similar with the Electrostars.

 

[cj_1985]

Testing throws up compatibility issues, sometimes not found in previous tests, with other equipments.

NR demand changes.

Manufacturer has learned a bit more about UK issues, fixes them but also normally avoids repeat with the next generation.

Sometimes the train order is big enough to switch things round: the first IEPs caused signalling failures across ECML and GWML.

NR ended up funding major infrastructure changes across both routes over several years to reduce susceptibility to the IEP harmonics.

I can't remember a previous train introduction triggering such a scale of retrospective infrastructure works, but most other manufacturers had a long history of experience of delivering similar trains here, except perhaps Stadler? (CAF started off with Siemens traction equipment)...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==


I forgot Alstom where the pendolinos triggered substantial works...

You talk as if Stadler Espana haven't had any experience introducing locomotives to the UK....

The 99s will be the 3rd fleet under their brand...

The 68s under the prior Vosloh brand that previously ran and manufactured at the facility...

And the 67s under Alstom before them...

 

[ac6000cw]

You talk as if Stadler Espana haven't had any experience introducing locomotives to the UK....

The 99s will be the 3rd fleet under their brand...

The 68s under the prior Vosloh brand that previously ran and manufactured at the facility...

And the 67s under Alstom before them...

The 99's will be 5th loco fleet from Valencia (67, 68, 88, 93 and 99), the 4th using ABB AC traction drives and the 3rd with 25kV OHLE capability. Also ABB supplied the AC traction drives for the 92's (and the Eurotunnel shuttle locos, but they don't run on NR track).

I think the only mainline UK locos with AC traction drives not supplied by ABB are the GE-equipped class 70's.

 

[cj_1985]

The 99's will be 5th loco fleet from Valencia (67, 68, 88, 93 and 99), the 4th using ABB AC traction drives and the 3rd with 25kV OHLE capability.

But what i mean is the 3rd fleet since the factory has been under Stadler ownership... but yes, 5th overall for the UK

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Will the 93s be doing similar work to what the 37s are doing now?

 

[D365]

Will the 93s be doing similar work to what the 37s are doing now?

See my post above:

This may have been suggested in the past, but none of the ROG lectures that I have attended in the past 12 months have stated that the Class 93s will displace their Class 37s.

 

[Richard123]

The 99's will be 5th loco fleet from Valencia (67, 68, 88, 93 and 99), the 4th using ABB AC traction drives and the 3rd with 25kV OHLE capability. Also ABB supplied the AC traction drives for the 92's (and the Eurotunnel shuttle locos, but they don't run on NR track).

I think the only mainline UK locos with AC traction drives not supplied by ABB are the GE-equipped class 70's.

Indeed; the second AC fleet. The diesel fleets don't bring too much learning from traction compatibility perspective, as the currents are largely contained within the loco.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2025 ==

The power upgrades on the South Western triggered by the Desiros?

Fair point, but that wasn't a vehicle compatibility failing, it was a lack of power problem

 

[Peddles88]

Looks like another one is off to Crewe South Yard tomorrow.

Realtime Trains | 0Q42 1015 Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard | 23/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 0Q42 1015 departure from Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard on 23/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[800001]

Looks like another one is off to Crewe South Yard tomorrow.

Realtime Trains | 0Q42 1015 Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard | 23/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 0Q42 1015 departure from Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard on 23/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The start of more testing on the Wcml.

 

[Suraggu]

The start of more testing on the Wcml.

Realtime Trains | 6Q09 2232 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. | 23/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 6Q09 2232 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. on 23/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

So it appears loaded tests are beginning tomorrow.

 

[Rail Quest]

Realtime Trains | 6Q09 2232 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. | 23/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 6Q09 2232 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. on 23/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

So it appears loaded tests are beginning tomorrow.

If this does run this evening, does anyone know what wagons it'll be hauling?

 

[Trainman40083]

Looks like another one is off to Crewe South Yard tomorrow.

Realtime Trains | 0Q42 1015 Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard | 23/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 0Q42 1015 departure from Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard on 23/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

93002/93010 I understand

 

[Suraggu]

93002/93010 I understand

With 007 joining them from Long Marston later in the day.

 

[hwl]

If this does run this evening, does anyone know what wagons it'll be hauling?

At a educated guess starting with ~ 600t and then stepping up in 200t increments (e.g. 2x loaded aggregate box wagons) with a couple of runs at each step. Then probably throwing in a 100t increment just below where the "really struggles" case is.

 

[AndrewE]

Realtime Trains | 6Q09 2232 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. | 23/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 6Q09 2232 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. on 23/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

So it appears loaded tests are beginning tomorrow.

and it's booked to stand for 14 minutes at Tebay, presumably a challenge test for restarting on a gradient, or climbing Shap without having had a run at it.

 

[Suraggu]

and it's booked to stand for 14 minutes at Tebay, presumably a challenge test for restarting on a gradient, or climbing Shap without having had a run at it.

It certainly appears that way. Clearly this is what these tests are being carried out to demonstrate/show.

Tomorrow test show a maximum weight of 1400 tonnes.

Realtime Trains | 6Q09 2232 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. | 24/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 6Q09 2232 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. on 24/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[AndrewE]

It certainly appears that way. Clearly this is what these tests are being carried out to demonstrate/show.

Tomorrow test show a maximum weight of 1400 tonnes.

Realtime Trains | 6Q09 2232 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. | 24/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 6Q09 2232 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Carlisle N.Y. on 24/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I'm a bit puzzled as to why they are pathed as diesel... surely the point of these locos is that they can draw lots of power from the wires to keep going up the bank at a decent speed?
If there was no power (and one stalled) then there would be no electric trains for them to hold up anyway...