Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[Belperpete]

Having absorbed the message about social distancing and the like, people are now going to be reluctant to give it up unless some other measure is put in place. Having been told for so long that "it is not safe", they are just not going to accept suddenly being told that "it is now safe". I suspect that wearing a mask is going to be the fig-leaf the government uses to get people to accept a relaxation of the lockdown measures.

 

[philjo]

I heard on radio 4 earlier that From Monday Eurostar will require all passengers to cover their faces at all times or be refused travel. This is in line with French and Belgian Government guidelines.

 

[MarkyT]

Having absorbed the message about social distancing and the like, people are now going to be reluctant to give it up unless some other measure is put in place. Having been told for so long that "it is not safe", they are just not going to accept suddenly being told that "it is now safe". I suspect that wearing a mask is going to be the fig-leaf the government uses to get people to accept a relaxation of the lockdown measures.

In confined areas like shops, public transport and some workplaces, I don't think the measure is a 'fig leaf' at all for 'source control'. Outdoors, masks probably have very little effect, except in the densest crowds.

 

[MarkyT]

I heard on radio 4 earlier that From Monday Eurostar will require all passengers to cover their faces at all times or be refused travel. This is in line with French and Belgian Government guidelines.

So you'll be able to exit St Pancras International, have no entry test, remove your mask and get straight on the Piccadilly line...

 

[Bantamzen]

The weekly figures for additional all causes deaths over the upper bound of what is to be expected at this time of year is the most interesting, and it has been building up to around double the usual rate through April.

What we know, and what we don’t, about the true coronavirus death toll - Full Fact

It’s too soon to compare the UK’s coronavirus death toll with other countries

fullfact.org

View attachment 77326

Some commentary.
The graph is about two weeks old which is clearly an eternity in pandemics.
Some additional deaths may be a side effect due to people, through inability or fear, not seeing their doctors or attending A&E for other complaints.
On the other hand lockdown may have reduced deaths caused by road traffic accidents and some work accidents, e.g. on building sites etc.
It is certainly possible that a quantity of additional co-morbid deaths in this period may be offset by fewer deaths later in the year, i.e deaths brought forward from next winter or to put it more emotionally denying 'dying' people their last summer.

Your point about supply of PPE to medical staff is very important I agree, but it's not clear that public face covering requirements would necessarily impact that. Manufacture of simple surgical style masks, as worn routinely by dentists or in nail bars etc before the pandemic could be ramped up massively, as achieved by government decree in Taiwan at the beginning of their outbreak such that they can supply everyone. It's simple low tech stuff that can be automated easily. Much easier than other PPE clothing and especially more so than complex medical machinery like ventilators. In any case, home-made or improvised coverings are entirely adequate for 'source control' which is the main objective, to stop droplet and microdroplet propagating and lingering in confined public areas indoors, where distancing is difficult, and may not be adequate to control transmission anyway - see NHK video above.

The latest suggestion on the news today for people to check their own temperature before using public transport ('one of a number of measures being considered') might be a good idea in itself, but is absurd alone as a control measure, as it can't be enforced and is totally ineffective for any infected person who is not showing any symptoms (either yet or ever in some cases, despite being contagious).

There is no doubt that the current pandemic is having a massive effect, but there may be other factors. For example people may not be seeking medical assistance because they believe only covid patents should be approaching the NHS.

As for masks, there is still a serious worldwide shortage of PPE for healthcare staff. When you read reports of medical staff having to re-use equipment, then you know there is an issue. The more countries insist on mask wearing, the more pressure on healthcare procurement. Its time for proper prioritisation, and look after the people most at risk not just people lapping up the media driven frenzy.

Having absorbed the message about social distancing and the like, people are now going to be reluctant to give it up unless some other measure is put in place. Having been told for so long that "it is not safe", they are just not going to accept suddenly being told that "it is now safe". I suspect that wearing a mask is going to be the fig-leaf the government uses to get people to accept a relaxation of the lockdown measures.

I've noted recently on my social media feeds that some family & friends are fretting about the notion of any kind of relaxation of the lockdown. I believe the term "Stockholm Syndrome" is appropriate here. People don't to accept a relaxation, it has to happen if we are ever to return to something like a functional society. Current the agenda is being driven by extreme necessity, fear and people who prefer distancing. This can't and won't last. The major problem with masks is not when you enforce them, but when you relax them. Nobody seems to have an idea on that, which is very disturbing and utopian.

 

[Belperpete]

The major problem with masks is not when you enforce them, but when you relax them. Nobody seems to have an idea on that, which is very disturbing and utopian.

The SARS epidemic led to the wearing of masks in public becoming common practice in Asian countries, as evidenced by the number of Asian tourists over here wearing masks, long before covid. Even though they looked incongruous among all the non-mask-wearing locals. I fully expect that one of the results of this pandemic is that it will become common practice here too, if not worldwide.

Unnecessary wearing of a mask is surely better than people refusing to send their children to school or refusing to work because they consider it unsafe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember that Asian cultures have done it for years, and they generally do it when they know they have a cold or similar to avoid spreading it. Maybe that altruism is indeed something we could do with here long term.

 

[Mogster]

Remember that Asian cultures have done it for years, and they generally do it when they know they have a cold or similar to avoid spreading it. Maybe that altruism is indeed something we could do with here long term.

Mask wearing seems to have been common in some parts of Asia for some time, well before SARS. I think it started originally as a response to the high levels of pollution rather than a disease control. Being seen to be doing the right thing is a strong part of East Asian culture which probably explains the mask wearing. Talking to some East Asian work colleagues (HK, SK) it seems mask wearing wasn’t common outside China even after SARS. Look up photos of HK and Seoul before January, like Europe very few people are wearing masks.

The SARS epidemic led to the wearing of masks in public becoming common practice in Asian countries, as evidenced by the number of Asian tourists over here wearing masks, long before covid. Even though they looked incongruous among all the non-mask-wearing locals. I fully expect that one of the results of this pandemic is that it will become common practice here too, if not worldwide.

Unnecessary wearing of a mask is surely better than people refusing to send their children to school or refusing to work because they consider it unsafe.

I really don’t see public mask wearing becoming commonplace in Europe. The papers have pictures of crowds of people out walking in Spanish and German cities now their lockdown has been relaxed. Very few are wearing masks. I travel 30 miles into the centre of Manchester daily for work. Hardly anyone who’s out and about is wearing a mask. In Manchester it’s mostly the East Asian students as normal.

Having absorbed the message about social distancing and the like, people are now going to be reluctant to give it up unless some other measure is put in place. Having been told for so long that "it is not safe", they are just not going to accept suddenly being told that "it is now safe". I suspect that wearing a mask is going to be the fig-leaf the government uses to get people to accept a relaxation of the lockdown measures.

I‘ve been working through most of the lockdown but had almost 2 weeks off over Easter. It did feel slightly weird returning to work after 2 weeks of isolation other than regimented distanced shopping. The feeling lasted about 30 seconds though. I expect it will be the same for most.

 

[bramling]

Personally I'd rather we didn't have to in the first place. I remember a time when someone deliberately covering their faces in public was either a sign of a religious doctrine, or someone up to no good. If a compulsory mask requirement is enforced in this country, I wonder how long it will take for the criminal element to take advantage, and for innocent people be even more concerned every time they step outside their door?

This is a very good point. I don’t think mask wearing should be something that goes any further than as a last resort to help us get through the current situation. We’ve managed perfectly well up until now.

I suspect many will continue to make more use of hand gels when this is all over, but that’s about as far as things will go IMO.

 

[Domh245]

I suspect many will continue to make more use of hand gels when this is all over, but that’s about as far as things will go IMO.

Given how many people didn't seem to be washing their hands properly before, perhaps that is no bad thing!

 

[MDB1images]

Remember that Asian cultures have done it for years, and they generally do it when they know they have a cold or similar to avoid spreading it. Maybe that altruism is indeed something we could do with here long term.

It's also worn due to pollution.

 

[MarkyT]

It's also worn due to pollution.

In a recent Tony Robinson TV travelogue, one of his interviewees explained that in Japan at least, mask-wearing is also to an extent a modesty/privacy issue for some people.

 

[Non Multi]

I saw boxes of face coverings on sale recently, pretty sure they were priced at £39.99. At that price I might as well go out wearing a nappy on my head and a tampon shoved up each nostril instead. Would probably provide a greater level of protection than those things.

 

[Bantamzen]

The SARS epidemic led to the wearing of masks in public becoming common practice in Asian countries, as evidenced by the number of Asian tourists over here wearing masks, long before covid. Even though they looked incongruous among all the non-mask-wearing locals. I fully expect that one of the results of this pandemic is that it will become common practice here too, if not worldwide.

Unnecessary wearing of a mask is surely better than people refusing to send their children to school or refusing to work because they consider it unsafe.

Remember that Asian cultures have done it for years, and they generally do it when they know they have a cold or similar to avoid spreading it. Maybe that altruism is indeed something we could do with here long term.

Exactly, mask wearing in the Far East is something they do when they have symptoms of a cold or flu. I really do wish people would stop pretending that it is a normal thing in order to justify forcing healthy people to wear them.

This is a very good point. I don’t think mask wearing should be something that goes any further than as a last resort to help us get through the current situation. We’ve managed perfectly well up until now.

I suspect many will continue to make more use of hand gels when this is all over, but that’s about as far as things will go IMO.

The problem here is that those wishing to see us wear masks canotn offer any kind of end game, once it becomes the norm they will argue that we should always wear them. This is why I think countries that have gone down this route have made a serious error in judgement, they will find it very difficult to return to normal. Maybe this where the phrase "The New Normal" originates from? Normal, but not actually normal. Frankly it sounds like something out of the pages of Nineteen Eighty Four.

A friend of mine also raised a very interesting point the other day. If wearing masks became the normal (or "Other Normal"), what would be the effect on our immune systems. Because our immune systems have to be trained, and they do that through exposure to a mass of bacteria & viruses in our ecosystem. So if we permanently shield ourselves in this manner, could this make ourselves and future generations even weaker to existing and future micro-organisms? It certainly got me thinking.

 

[111-111-1]

Exactly, mask wearing in the Far East is something they do when they have symptoms of a cold or flu. I really do wish people would stop pretending that it is a normal thing in order to justify forcing healthy people to wear them.



The problem here is that those wishing to see us wear masks canotn offer any kind of end game, once it becomes the norm they will argue that we should always wear them. This is why I think countries that have gone down this route have made a serious error in judgement, they will find it very difficult to return to normal. Maybe this where the phrase "The New Normal" originates from? Normal, but not actually normal. Frankly it sounds like something out of the pages of Nineteen Eighty Four.

A friend of mine also raised a very interesting point the other day. If wearing masks became the normal (or "Other Normal"), what would be the effect on our immune systems. Because our immune systems have to be trained, and they do that through exposure to a mass of bacteria & viruses in our ecosystem. So if we permanently shield ourselves in this manner, could this make ourselves and future generations even weaker to existing and future micro-organisms? It certainly got me thinking.

My only experience of the far east was China in 2005, I cannot recall mass wearing of masks then.

Agreed, hopefully it wont be the norm but if it does make a difference to allowing a relaxation of restrictions for the short term it could well be worth it.

On your last point, it has been suggested before that because of todays sanitised world children are not building strong immune systems.

 

[Bantamzen]

My only experience of the far east was China in 2005, I cannot recall mass wearing of masks then.

Agreed, hopefully it wont be the norm but if it does make a difference to allowing a relaxation of restrictions for the short term it could well be worth it.

On your last point, it has been suggested before that because of todays sanitised world children are not building strong immune systems.

I have a friend whose son lives in China, and friends that live in Japan. They all confirm, from local people, that mask wearing is not the norm but that people do often wear masks when feeling poorly, or if they have symptoms such as sneezing or coughing.

In terms of wider immunity issues, my wife and I long ago gave up using anything anti-bacterial / anti-viral household products because we are of the belief that nature abhors a vacuum, and that we humans risk creating one by sanitising our home eco-systems which leads to micro-organisms mutating to adapt & becoming even stronger. Conversely if our immune systems are not exposed to what is out there, then they will become weaker through the generations. Somebody elsewhere mused that this virus seemed to affect industrialised nations more than poorer ones. I can't help but wonder if our increasingly sanitised lives have some part in that. (For the record I am not suggesting we shouldn't be clean, just that we should consider if the products we use are the right ones).

 

[Bletchleyite]

A friend of mine also raised a very interesting point the other day. If wearing masks became the normal (or "Other Normal"), what would be the effect on our immune systems. Because our immune systems have to be trained, and they do that through exposure to a mass of bacteria & viruses in our ecosystem. So if we permanently shield ourselves in this manner, could this make ourselves and future generations even weaker to existing and future micro-organisms? It certainly got me thinking.

I have heard it suggested that one reason for a high prevolence of allergies is "germphobia" meaning the immune system doesn't have enough to actually attack so instead attacks other things. That said I am absolutely not a germophobe (in normal times just about the only time I wash my hands is after toilet use) and I have allergies, so it's clearly not 100% true.

 

[Mogster]

Somebody elsewhere mused that this virus seemed to affect industrialised nations more than poorer ones. I can't help but wonder if our increasingly sanitised lives have some part in that. (For the record I am not suggesting we shouldn't be clean, just that we should consider if the products we use are the right ones).

Older people are most seriously affected by CoV2. Developing countries have much younger populations
so it’s been suggested that the effects of CoV2 will be much less there.

Developing countries also tend to have a much higher infectious disease burden already. CoV2 infections may be hard to differentiate from many thousands of cases of common diseases like Dengue fever and Malaria.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just been watching Andrew Marr. Walses is definitely looking at getting some children back to school on June 1st, but it seems targetted heavily at those in most need. It was also mentioned that face masks may need to be worn, "to persuade the public that it's safe to go out".

So it looks as though face mask wearing is based on psychological rather than medical reasons. This is wrong for so many reasons as identified by the WHO.

Non-medical or cloth masks could increase potential for COVID-19 to infect a person if the mask is contaminated by dirty hands and touched often, or kept on other parts of the face or head and then placed back over the mouth and nose
[*]Depending on the type of mask used, could cause difficulty in breathing
[*]They can lead to facial skin breakdown
[*]They can lead to difficulty with communicating clearly
[*]They can be uncomfortable to wear
[*]It is possible that mask use, with unclear benefits, could create a false sense of security in the wearer, leading to diminished practice of recognized beneficial preventive measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Masks

www.who.int

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The problem here is that those wishing to see us wear masks canotn offer any kind of end game, once it becomes the norm they will argue that we should always wear them. This is why I think countries that have gone down this route have made a serious error in judgement, they will find it very difficult to return to normal. Maybe this where the phrase "The New Normal" originates from? Normal, but not actually normal. Frankly it sounds like something out of the pages of Nineteen Eighty Four.

I don't think that's entirely fair. My own view is that it's probably a good idea to mandate masks in confined spaces - such as public transport and shops, as soon as we have enough supply that doing that won't harm availability to health and social care workers. That's because I think it would make some difference to transmission in places where social distancing is impossible - and it would also help people to feel confident about going on places like the tube and commuter trains, helping ease the lockdown without having a mass flight of people into private cars.

However I see that as a temporary measure. For me, the end game is that mandatory mask wearing ends as soon as the virus as been reduced to negligible levels amongst the general public. I would be extremely unhappy if mask wearing became permanent, and I'd equally be unhappy if it was mandated - even as a temporary measure - in the open air where their usefulness must be almost zero.

A friend of mine also raised a very interesting point the other day. If wearing masks became the normal (or "Other Normal"), what would be the effect on our immune systems. Because our immune systems have to be trained, and they do that through exposure to a mass of bacteria & viruses in our ecosystem. So if we permanently shield ourselves in this manner, could this make ourselves and future generations even weaker to existing and future micro-organisms? It certainly got me thinking.

That has crossed my mind too... however that argument applies even more strongly to social distancing. Having said that, we don't die from infectious diseases nearly as often now as we did 200 years or so ago. That experience suggests that reducing transmission of diseases does still have a net positive effect.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is no doubt that the current pandemic is having a massive effect, but there may be other factors. For example people may not be seeking medical assistance because they believe only covid patents should be approaching the NHS.

That is true. However, if you are going to factor in secondary effects like that, you also need to consider that currently fewer people will be dying from pollution-related causes. Plus social distancing will be reducing transmission of other infectious diseases, not just Covid-19, which again will be lowering the death rate (I'm not sure how significant that is in the UK where we're coming into summer, but I understand that has been observed as a significant effect in Australia - where they are entering winter and therefore coming into what would normally be the flu season there)

 

[Bantamzen]

So it looks as though face mask wearing is based on psychological rather than medical reasons. This is wrong for so many reasons as identified by the WHO.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Masks

www.who.int

Indeed, if masks are really only ever going to serve to "re-assure" will there ever be a time when they can be put away again?

I don't think that's entirely fair. My own view is that it's probably a good idea to mandate masks in confined spaces - such as public transport and shops, as soon as we have enough supply that doing that won't harm availability to health and social care workers. That's because I think it would make some difference to transmission in places where social distancing is impossible - and it would also help people to feel confident about going on places like the tube and commuter trains, helping ease the lockdown without having a mass flight of people into private cars.

However I see that as a temporary measure. For me, the end game is that mandatory mask wearing ends as soon as the virus as been reduced to negligible levels amongst the general public. I would be extremely unhappy if mask wearing became permanent, and I'd equally be unhappy if it was mandated - even as a temporary measure - in the open air where their usefulness must be almost zero.

For all the reasons the WHO state, wearing masks isn't the way forward as far as I am concerned. As said above, it may be a purely psychological measure.

That has crossed my mind too... however that argument applies even more strongly to social distancing. Having said that, we don't die from infectious diseases nearly as often now as we did 200 years or so ago. That experience suggests that reducing transmission of diseases does still have a net positive effect.

Social distancing isn't the panacea people seem to be willing it to be. There is hardly any real science behind it, demonstrated by the various distances mandated by various governments, and has real social & economic impacts. Socially it is having a very negative effect on our collective psyche, you can see that from the panic is some people's eyes when you approach them, and of course will be having serious effects on people's general wellbeing as human contact is very much part of our needs. Economically social distancing makes a lot of activities difficult if not impossible, and with a significant part of our economy reliant on just those the impact is massive.

That is true. However, if you are going to factor in secondary effects like that, you also need to consider that currently fewer people will be dying from pollution-related causes. Plus social distancing will be reducing transmission of other infectious diseases, not just Covid-19, which again will be lowering the death rate (I'm not sure how significant that is in the UK where we're coming into summer, but I understand that has been observed as a significant effect in Australia - where they are entering winter and therefore coming into what would normally be the flu season there)

Not necessarily, unless you literally wear your mask all the time.

 

[High Dyke]

I saw boxes of face coverings on sale recently, pretty sure they were priced at £39.99. At that price I might as well go out wearing a nappy on my head and a tampon shoved up each nostril instead. Would probably provide a greater level of protection than those things.

Like this chap?


Alternatively for a better protected society we could all invest in one of these. Not only does it afford a degree of protection, but the 'specialist' retailers would be boosting the economy.

 

[trebor79]

So do conductors on the NY subway - they have either single or traverse cabs. There have been around 20 deaths from Co-vid , despite mask protection.

Nearer to home , London and other places bus crews , in theory "work in cabs" , with screens. How many deaths there ?

But nobody knows whether the infection was picked up at work, or elsewhere?

 

[HH]

But nobody knows whether the infection was picked up at work, or elsewhere?

Exactly. We need the test and trace, so we can have a proper cause and effect.

 

[MarkyT]

So it looks as though face mask wearing is based on psychological rather than medical reasons. This is wrong for so many reasons as identified by the WHO.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Masks

www.who.int

These revised guidelines DO NOT rule out benefits of non-medical masks worn for 'source control'. They acknowledge that research is ongoing but they come to no conclusion. Instead they give authorities much freedom in making decisions as to advice and requirements, asking them to use a risk-based approach based on clear objectives. My reading is that a targetted requirement for specific areas such as enclosed public spaces and public transport would be wholly in accordance with them.

Some peer-reviewed formally published mathematical modelling can be found here:

To mask or not to mask: Modeling the potential for face mask use by the general public to curtail the COVID-19 pandemic

Face mask use by the general public for limiting the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic is controversial, though increasingly recommended, and the potent…

www.sciencedirect.com

In conclusion, our findings suggest that face mask use should be as nearly universal (i.e., nation-wide) as possible and implemented without delay, even if most masks are homemade and of relatively low quality. This measure could contribute greatly to controlling the COVID-19 pandemic, with the benefit greatest in conjunction with other non-pharmaceutical interventions that reduce community transmission. Despite uncertainty, the potential for benefit, the lack of obvious harm, and the precautionary principle lead us to strongly recommend as close to universal (homemade, unless medical masks can be used without diverting healthcare supply) mask use by the general public as possible.

 

[Darandio]

So you'll be able to exit St Pancras International, have no entry test, remove your mask and get straight on the Piccadilly line...

Much like arriving on any flight over the past 4 months then? Even when the pandemic has been at it's height in the most affected countries, flights were landing here with the occupants allowed to waltz straight in.

 

[MarkyT]

Much like arriving on any flight over the past 4 months then? Even when the pandemic has been at it's height in the most affected countries, flights were landing here with the occupants allowed to waltz straight in.

So it looks like airlines believe that mask-wearing is beneficial for source control on their aircraft to protect other passengers and their staff. Anyone coming into the country will thus already possess a mask of some form so continuing to wear it for the remainder of their journey on public transport would not have any impact on the availability of masks to medical workers.

 

[HH]

So it looks like airlines believe that mask-wearing is beneficial for source control on their aircraft to protect other passengers and their staff. Anyone coming into the country will thus already possess a mask of some form so continuing to wear it for the remainder of their journey on public transport would not have any impact on the availability of masks to medical workers.

After wearing it for hours at the origin airport, the length of the flight and the destination airport, you have to wonder how effective it is...

 

[Darandio]

So it looks like airlines believe that mask-wearing is beneficial for source control on their aircraft to protect other passengers and their staff. Anyone coming into the country will thus already possess a mask of some form so continuing to wear it for the remainder of their journey on public transport would not have any impact on the availability of masks to medical workers.

I believe airlines are introducing that with immediate effect across the board.