Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[HH]

Since the purpose of mouth covering on board is 'source control' and is effectively a statistical method of reducing risk of transmission by keeping the majority of mouths covered for the majority of the time, the brief lifting of a mask by individuals periodically to take a bite or a sip should not be a problem, even in fairly close proximity, as the person is not likely to be talking, coughing or sneezing at the same time.

Maybe, but I can foresee problems in policing this, if it were to be policy, because some people would push it and others would object.

 

[yorksrob]

Not so good for hot drinks, but one could always take a straw.

 

[scotrail158713]

Maybe, but I can foresee problems in policing this, if it were to be policy, because some people would push it and others would object.

But as you’ve also said, can we expect people to go hours without even having a sip of water?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as you’ve also said, can we expect people to go hours without even having a sip of water?

People used to do that all the time. The idea of carrying a bottle of water (be that an environmentally unfriendly plastic one or an environmentally friendly reusable one) is a new thing. Probably post about 2005. Prior to that most people didn't, and they didn't die.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

If one is prepared to travel at all to the French or Belgian capitals while the pandemic is still raging across Europe, I suggest bleating about not being allowed to eat or drink - for what, three hours? - is rather akin to a scene in the movie Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid.
(Paul Newman’s character looks at the drop into the ravine and claims he can’t swim. Robert Redford’s character replies ‘Don’t worry, the fall will probably kill ya’

 

[Llanigraham]

Since the purpose of mouth covering on board is 'source control' and is effectively a statistical method of reducing risk of transmission by keeping the majority of mouths covered for the majority of the time, the brief lifting of a mask by individuals periodically to take a bite or a sip should not be a problem, even in fairly close proximity, as the person is not likely to be talking, coughing or sneezing at the same time. The complete removal of a mask to eat a full 3-course meal should clearly require full distancing to be maintained, and, I suggest, is fairly unlikely on public transport today.

Quite. However it appears there is an element of the public who are unable to understand this.

 

[ashkeba]

If one is prepared to travel at all to the French or Belgian capitals while the pandemic is still raging across Europe, I suggest bleating about not being allowed to eat or drink - for what, three hours? - is rather akin to a scene in the movie Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid.
(Paul Newman’s character looks at the drop into the ravine and claims he can’t swim. Robert Redford’s character replies ‘Don’t worry, the fall will probably kill ya’

What trains will get me from Ely to Limoges in three hours? Or do you feel I should get a hotel room in each city along the way to drink?

MarkyT has it right. Public masks are a numbers game and the odd sip and snack should be allowed.

 

[ashkeba]

People used to do that all the time. The idea of carrying a bottle of water (be that an environmentally unfriendly plastic one or an environmentally friendly reusable one) is a new thing. Probably post about 2005. Prior to that most people didn't, and they didn't die.

Except the ones who did, which led to all the recorded announcements because apparently British people forget to drink in hot weather and make themselves ill!

 

[LAX54]

you get daft things like the woman i saw when out shopping this morning had a mask on and wearing glasses the peak of the mask was resting on her glasses so leaving a gap around the top of the mask so making a total waste of time wearing it

Unless the mask is tight, then it's a waste of time, minute gaps will let bacteria out, Hospitals changes theirs after every activity with a patient, noy sure how that would work in public ? and Latex Gloves? leave them alone !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except the ones who did, which led to all the recorded announcements because apparently British people forget to drink in hot weather and make themselves ill!

The number of people who normally drink enough water and can't last 3 hours of inactivity without drinking water in the middle of that is very small. We aren't asking them to run a marathon without a drink.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

What trains will get me from Ely to Limoges in three hours? Or do you feel I should get a hotel room in each city along the way to drink?

MarkyT has it right. Public masks are a numbers game and the odd sip and snack should be allowed.

The three hours I was referring to concerned the Eurostar portion of a journey, the only bit where it is mandatory to wear a face-covering. If you choose to travel from Ely with a face-covering, I don’t understand your argument

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just stumbled across this Vanity Fair article which quotes some research that seems to strongly advocate mask wearing. The article contains a link to the original research publication here, which on a quick glance looks legitimate to me, though it's hard to be certain, and it is only a preprint so probably not yet peer-reviewed.

If you’re wondering whether to wear or not to wear, consider this. The day before yesterday, 21 people died of COVID-19 in Japan. In the United States, 2,129 died. Comparing overall death rates for the two countries offers an even starker point of comparison with total U.S. deaths now at a staggering 76,032 and Japan’s fatalities at 577. Japan’s population is about 38% of the U.S., but even adjusting for population, the Japanese death rate is a mere 2% of America’s.

This comes despite Japan having no lockdown, still-active subways, and many businesses that have remained open—reportedly including karaoke bars, although Japanese citizens and industries are practicing social distancing where they can. Nor have the Japanese broadly embraced contact tracing, a practice by which health authorities identify someone who has been infected and then attempt to identify everyone that person might have interacted with—and potentially infected. So how does Japan do it?

“One reason is that nearly everyone there is wearing a mask,” said De Kai, an American computer scientist with joint appointments at UC Berkeley’s International Computer Science Institute and at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. He is also the chief architect of an in-depth study, set to be released in the coming days, that suggests that every one of us should be wearing a mask—whether surgical or homemade, scarf or bandana—like they do in Japan and other countries, mostly in East Asia. This formula applies to President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence (occasional mask refuseniks) as well as every other official who routinely interacts with people in public settings. Among the findings of their research paper, which the team plans to submit to a major journal: If 80% of a closed population were to don a mask, COVID-19 infection rates would statistically drop to approximately one twelfth the number of infections—compared to a live-virus population in which no one wore masks.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just stumbled across this Vanity Fair article which quotes some research that seems to strongly advocate mask wearing. The article contains a link to the original research publication here, which on a quick glance looks legitimate to me, though it's hard to be certain, and it is only a preprint so probably not yet peer-reviewed.

Or perhaps, as has been said many times on this debate, it is because the Japanese routinely wear masks when they have symptoms of a cold or a flu?

 

[Class83]

Masks have very low protective value. Last study of masks and Covid-19 I saw had wearing a mask meant you were 40% less likely to pass on the disease if you were infected but only reduced your chances of catching it yourself by 2%.

Indeed, standard masks don't really protect the wearer, but if everyone wears them they prevent the infected spreading it.

While a 40% reduction in spread isn't perfect, all of the measures; fewer people out as working from home, washing hands, 2m apart where possible & mask wearing have a cumulative effect in reducing the rate of transmission. The sweet spot is as much of the economy as possible open while R<1 until we get a vaccine, all these measures can help achieve this.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

.
We need to be careful when talking about what masks can and can't do.

Thr slogan is that "I wear a mask to protect you and you wear one to protect me" ...if you have the infection then the idea is that by wearing a mask you are less likely to spread it.

A lot of it is psychological though and thus provides a level of reassurance to others even if misplaced from a scientific perspective.

 

[LAX54]

Remember, the mask does NOT protect the wearer, it is to protect others from you, and reading some reports, even that is debatable, but it does give the 'sense' of protection

 

[yorksrob]

Remember, the mask does NOT protect the wearer, it is to protect others from you, and reading some reports, even that is debateable, but it does give the 'sense' of protetction

I've been aware of this from the start, so everyone wearing the mask would give me that sense of protection.

 

[LAX54]

I've been aware of this from the start, so everyone wearing the mask would give me that sense of protection.

Down side is, as many Docs have said, wear it too long it will make it worse, as soon as it is damp, it will allow the bacteria through, which is probably why nurses etc change after every action.

 

[yorksrob]

Down side is, as many Docs have said, wear it too long it will make it worse, as soon as it is damp, it will allow the bacteria through, which is probably why nurses etc change after every action.

I suppose it depends how long you have it on for. Some operations in hospital can take a matter of hours. I don't know if surgions keep theirs on during the whole of that time.

There has to be an effective way of being in public enclosed spaces.

The current situation on public transport is a bit of a mess:

"You ought to be two meters apart on trains, but in the rush hour, you probably won't be. You probably ought to wear a face mask, but you don't have to. You can sort of see your family if you drive but not if you don't"

They need to actually plan something properly:

• 1m distancing as per international norms
• Mark out seats and spaces where people can stand and sit according to guidance.
• Mandate mask wearing.
• Restrict travel to workers during part of the day - maybe require employer confirmation. Enable other passengers to travel at other times.

This would be preferable to the current slap-dash approach.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I don't really agree with the half way house of suggesting that people wear face coverings on public transport. If there's enough of a chance that it might work its worth suggesting, they ought to mandate it IMO.

 

[Belperpete]

I must admit, I don't really agree with the half way house of suggesting that people wear face coverings on public transport. If there's enough of a chance that it might work its worth suggesting, they ought to mandate it IMO.

Agreed, the implication that you should wear a mask if you feel it is important, only reinforces the misconception that the mask protects the wearer.

 

[AM9]

Agreed, the implication that you should wear a mask if you feel it is important, only reinforces the misconception that the mask protects the wearer.

Not everybody only thinks of themselves.

 

[nlogax]

In case there's any doubt for those needing to tube, Overground or bus it across London, this morning's TfL email made things pretty clear.

We are taking measures across our network to enable social distancing of 2 metres where possible. Please wear a face covering. Do not travel if you have any symptoms of the virus.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The government have put public transport operators in a ridiculous position. I used the tube last night after work. I’d say only myself and one other person I could see, out of maybe 30 people on the train and platforms we pulled into were covered up. At Kings Cross no action was taken against anyone - because there is no legal basis on which to do so. Even having a quiet word was not explored. Utterly pointless to not make it mandatory IMHO

 

[AM9]

The government have put public transport operators in a ridiculous position. I used the tube last night after work. I’d say only myself and one other person I could see, out of maybe 30 people on the train and platforms we pulled into were covered up. At Kings Cross no action was taken against anyone - because there is no legal basis on which to do so. Even having a quiet word was not explored. Utterly pointless to not make it mandatory IMHO

Will it be another case of Johnson not actually doing something about it until everybody around him is screaming for it?

 

[Belperpete]

The government have put public transport operators in a ridiculous position. I used the tube last night after work. I’d say only myself and one other person I could see, out of maybe 30 people on the train and platforms we pulled into were covered up. At Kings Cross no action was taken against anyone - because there is no legal basis on which to do so. Even having a quiet word was not explored. Utterly pointless to not make it mandatory IMHO

Individual operators could make it a condition of travel on their services. I think this is what the government is hoping will happen, saving the government from any backlash should they attempt to mandate them.

However, I am not sure that the operators could apply it retrospectively (I.e. to someone who has already bought their ticket, e.g. a season ticket), unless it were included in the formal conditions of travel with suitable notice.

 

[221129]

However, I am not sure that the operators could apply it retrospectively (I.e. to someone who has already bought their ticket, e.g. a season ticket), unless it were included in the formal conditions of travel with suitable notice.

Of course they can!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Individual operators could make it a condition of travel on their services. I think this is what the government is hoping will happen, saving the government from any backlash should they attempt to mandate them.

However, I am not sure that the operators could apply it retrospectively (I.e. to someone who has already bought their ticket, e.g. a season ticket), unless it were included in the formal conditions of travel with suitable notice.

Surely an industry-wide change to be the Conditions Of Carriage (or whatever it’s called these days) would soon deal with that problem.
See it.
Say it.
Sorted.

 

[westv]

Of course they can!

So you'd be thrown off the train if you didn't have a piece of cloth?

 

[221129]

So you'd be thrown off the train if you didn't have a piece of cloth?

If an operator decided to make the wearing of a face covering mandatory on their services then it can be enforced yes. Whether you already have a ticket or not.