Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[Socanxdis]

Will Tocs provide masks to drivers and guards?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will Tocs provide masks to drivers and guards?

What would be the point in masks for drivers? They work alone.

 

[HH]

These are very loaded terms.

They convey what they were meant to convey - political decisions are based on a number of factors, not just the medical science.

I think the chart was prepared from a US perspective to compare a range of states over there with a range of European nations.

The chart was clearly prepared by someone advocating for masks, which was why they chose Czechoslovakia (masks, 236 deaths), but not Greece (no masks, 140 deaths) and Sweden (which has a different policy on lockdown anyway), but not Norway. To make it clear, it's a biased sample that has no logic but to push an agenda.

 

[221129]

What would be the point in masks for drivers? They work alone.

Changing ends? Mess rooms? Etc

 

[HH]

Changing ends? Mess rooms? Etc

Changing ends should be easily manageable through social distancing at the moment. Mess rooms are a problem, but I'm not sure that masks are the best solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Changing ends should be easily manageable through social distancing at the moment. Mess rooms are a problem, but I'm not sure that masks are the best solution.

The best solution to mess rooms is probably not to use them. They're basically a greasy cafe without the miserable person at the counter

 

[LAX54]

Interesting paper. To go off at a slight tangent, this statement in it caught my eye.



That seems to imply that you don't necessarily need 'proper' handwash to wash your hands, because any soap or detergent would work just as well if your aim to neutralise any Covid-19 particles. Does anyone know if that is correct?

Yes, quite a few reports from medical officers, have said that washing hands with soapy water, is far better than a hand gel, alhtough of course if you are out and about soapy water will not be available, thus hand gel is the way to go
(and always has been, even years ago, you never know what germs are on ATM keyboards, Shop door handles etc)
As for masks, whilst they will not stop you getting the virus, (unless it is tight fitting) it may reduce the effect you have on others.

 

[bramling]

The best solution to mess rooms is probably not to use them. They're basically a greasy cafe without the miserable person at the counter

The problem is they're not easy to avoid for people who

1) are spare and need to be somewhere whilst waiting to be called for a job

2) are in between jobs

A couple of the depots I know have done some innovative things like putting chairs in sections of car park or on out-of-use parts of platform, however this is only practicable when the weather is fine. Neither is ideal though, especially the second as staff should really have some privacy when on a break.

We've even had people choose to remain in their cars and only emerge once they're actually required to pick up a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We've even had people choose to remain in their cars and only emerge once they're actually required to pick up a train.

That is actually the best idea if workable (though obviously not where away from your car). No risk at all.

 

[bramling]

That is actually the best idea if workable (though obviously not where away from your car). No risk at all.

Good opportunity to do a full car valet!

Only viable in certain situations though, and no use for someone who's between trips not at their home depot.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The best solution to mess rooms is probably not to use them. They're basically a greasy cafe without the miserable person at the counter

So how , pray , as a "home worker" , do you plan for train crew to have a deserved cab break , a warm drink , some relaxing time after a period of intense concentration of safety critical work.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What would be the point in masks for drivers? They work alone.

So do conductors on the NY subway - they have either single or traverse cabs. There have been around 20 deaths from Co-vid , despite mask protection.

Nearer to home , London and other places bus crews , in theory "work in cabs" , with screens. How many deaths there ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So how , pray , as a "home worker" , do you plan for train crew to have a deserved cab break , a warm drink , some relaxing time after a period of intense concentration of safety critical work.

Well, they aren't going to be able to have it in a mess room unless it's possible to space the chairs all out 2m. So somewhere will have to be found. Fortunately it's summer, so outside might not be unpleasant at all.

What use are masks when you have to remove one to drink tea, which most people in a messroom will be doing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So do conductors on the NY subway - they have either single or traverse cabs. There have been around 20 deaths from Co-vid , despite mask protection.

Conductors stick their head out and potentially come near passengers in doing so, don't they?

Nearer to home , London and other places bus crews , in theory "work in cabs" , with screens. How many deaths there ?

That can't yet be answered, as only the figure after passengers were no longer allowed to come near or interact with them would be relevant.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well, they aren't going to be able to have it in a mess room unless it's possible to space the chairs all out 2m. So somewhere will have to be found. Fortunately it's summer, so outside might not be unpleasant at all.

What use are masks when you have to remove one to drink tea, which most people in a messroom will be doing?

I admire your deep and practical knowledge on all things , - how do you know such things are not being done. ? (double roll eyes...)

 

[SteveM70]

Changing ends should be easily manageable through social distancing at the moment. Mess rooms are a problem, but I'm not sure that masks are the best solution.

I don’t agree. Yes, social distancing avoids direct face to face contact as the crew change ends, but it does nothing for the virus being left present on surfaces if one of the crew has been coughing and spluttering. Use of face masks etc could help mitigate this (though not be guaranteed to prevent it)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don’t agree. Yes, social distancing avoids direct face to face contact as the crew change ends, but it does nothing for the virus being left present on surfaces if one of the crew has been coughing and spluttering. Use of face masks etc could help mitigate this (though not be guaranteed to prevent it)

As a real life and actual practical policy - the several trains per hour (on a reduced timetable at St Albans) have a through clean by train presentation operatives , who do all passenger area touch points AND driving cabs. With almost zero passenger numbers at the present , there is precious little litter , discarded Metro papers etc. Very sound.

 

[bramling]

As a real life and actual practical policy - the several trains per hour (on a reduced timetable at St Albans) have a through clean by train presentation operatives , who do all passenger area touch points AND driving cabs. With almost zero passenger numbers at the present , there is precious little litter , discarded Metro papers etc. Very sound.

The latter point is very salient. A lot of things are very manageable at present due to the low passenger numbers, and the fact that the type of passenger being carried at the moment is the type that creates zero problems!

Things are undoubtedly going to turn more challenging when passenger numbers pick up again, which is a good reason why it's pretty inevitable there's still going to have to be some element of "essential use only" restriction.

As you say, it's very conspicuous at the moment how every single train is without-fail on time and spotlessly clean!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The latter point is very salient. A lot of things are very manageable at present due to the low passenger numbers, and the fact that the type of passenger being carried at the moment is the type that creates zero problems!

Things are undoubtedly going to turn more challenging when passenger numbers pick up again, which is a good reason why it's pretty inevitable there's still going to have to be some element of "essential use only" restriction.

As you say, it's very conspicuous at the moment how every single train is without-fail on time and spotlessly clean!

National punctualty figures are exceptional at the moment - but hardly surprising when "only" about 12, 000 passenger trains a day are running. Delay attribution staff must be having a quiet time. The log sheets I am advised are a sea of green and 98%+

The NY subway , from today is entirely closed from today from 0100 to 0500 for heavy cleaning and disinfection (on the orders of the Mayor) , the first time in a long and proud history that it is shut at night from 1904. I assume that something similar is planned for the bus network. "only" 22,000 passengers directly affected , such is the fall off in passengers.

As passenger and train service numbers rise , a good policy to reassure all train crews and others directly involved (and of course passengers) , would be to massively increase visible cleaning at turnaround points etc to both clean and reassure. In theory something that could be implemented relatively easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I admire your deep and practical knowledge on all things , - how do you know such things are not being done. ? (double roll eyes...)

I didn't say they weren't.

 

[HH]

I don’t agree. Yes, social distancing avoids direct face to face contact as the crew change ends, but it does nothing for the virus being left present on surfaces if one of the crew has been coughing and spluttering. Use of face masks etc could help mitigate this (though not be guaranteed to prevent it)

I think that this has already been well-answered, but what you're describing is not an issue with changing ends (only drivers are in driver cabs and you only need one driver per train). It would be an issue with changing drivers, but that has also been covered I think.

So do conductors on the NY subway - they have either single or traverse cabs. There have been around 20 deaths from Co-vid , despite mask protection.

Nearer to home , London and other places bus crews , in theory "work in cabs" , with screens. How many deaths there ?

How many of these have been caused via bad practice in mess rooms and canteens? I ask because when TfL deaths started, several were of controllers, which would suggest that the virus wasn't necessarily being caught from Joe Public.

 

[MarkyT]

They convey what they were meant to convey - political decisions are based on a number of factors, not just the medical science.

I can't disagree with this statement generally, but I do strongly with your previous point that masks could possibly be a 'placebo' in any accepted sense of the word, except in a post hoc analysis where those vehemently against the measure will no doubt continue to claim that that overall figures were 'going down anyway' so masks had no effect. I suggest you read the recent Professor Trisha Greenhalgh paper I linked to up-thread, which is a detailed rebuttal argument against many of the points that 'anti-maskers' typically make.

The chart was clearly prepared by someone advocating for masks, which was why they chose Czechoslovakia (masks, 236 deaths), but not Greece (no masks, 140 deaths) and Sweden (which has a different policy on lockdown anyway), but not Norway. To make it clear, it's a biased sample that has no logic but to push an agenda.

The graph also doesn't include any mask wearing East Asian traces as several
near-horizontal lines superimposed at the bottom would probably be very difficult to read. Attempting to prevent people inadvertently ejecting droplets over each other through talking and inadvertent coughing and sneezing, particularly in confined spaces, may be 'an agenda' as you put it, but seems to be a benign one at worst, and sensible in a country where there is still a lot of known infection and possibly a fairly large pool of asymptomatic untested contagious carriers in the population.

 

[MDB1images]

From my personal point of view It's not been easy but I've got in a solid routine at work of 2metre distancing, hand washing frequently and not touching my face (the latter the hardest to get used to).

The thought of wearing a tight fitting face mask for upto 5 hours is not something I'd be keen to see come in unless the benefits was proven by the government scientists.

 

[MDB1images]

In terms of messrooms.
Ours have been altered have less people and other rooms found and utilised.
If you turn up at a location on a break and you feel it's unsafe on social distancing grounds we're told not to use it and flag it asap and something will be done or an alternate sourced.
I think most TOCs have kept staff spare at home if it's looked like spare cover would fill up messrooms uneccessarily.
Of course when services ramp up this will need reviewing again as clearly more people will be in/out than now.

In terms of drivers getting masks I'd say they will be provided to all staff in the front line(not necessarily saying they have to be worn at all times in some roles).

 

[MarkyT]

From my personal point of view It's not been easy but I've got in a solid routine at work of 2metre distancing, hand washing frequently and not touching my face (the latter the hardest to get used to).

The thought of wearing a tight fitting face mask for upto 5 hours is not something I'd be keen to see come in unless the benefits was proven by the government scientists.

Workplace settings are a special case I agree and need to be looked at on a case by case basis by employers and employees. Employees and their representatives should in theory have a strong hand on this due to employers general duty of care and health and safety responsibilities. Personally I've always been particularly concerned about the much less controlled environments in public circulating areas and where employees' duties encroach on these.

 

[bramling]

How many of these have been caused via bad practice in mess rooms and canteens? I ask because when TfL deaths started, several were of controllers, which would suggest that the virus wasn't necessarily being caught from Joe Public.

Most of the deaths do seem to have been on the buses side. At this stage I reckon it’s hard to pin down a root cause - whilst buses were clearly very exposed, one also has to consider whether this group might be more likely to have underlying health conditions.

I’m not aware of a disproportionate spike in deaths of Underground staff, be that drivers or anyone else. Indeed a good proportion of absence is due to shielding or family members displaying symptoms.

Likewise there don’t seem to have been any significant outbreaks among control staff on the Underground. Either the virus doesn’t spread quite so readily via surfaces (bear in mind in most control rooms people will be picking up each other’s phones on a routine basis), or the fact that these locations were quarantined comparatively early on may have saved the day. Again shielding has been the major issue rather than sickness, which does present problems going forward as it means the current absence level will likely persist.

 

[MarkyT]

In terms of messrooms.
Ours have been altered have less people and other rooms found and utilised.
If you turn up at a location on a break and you feel it's unsafe on social distancing grounds we're told not to use it and flag it asap and something will be done or an alternate sourced.
I think most TOCs have kept staff spare at home if it's looked like spare cover would fill up messrooms uneccessarily.
Of course when services ramp up this will need reviewing again as clearly more people will be in/out than now.

In terms of drivers getting masks I'd say they will be provided to all staff in the front line(not necessarily saying they have to be worn at all times in some roles).

These seem sensible policies. A mask in the cab would seem overkill unless there was another staff member present. Micro-droplets expelled during speaking and of course coughing and sneezing may be a source of transmission, and some researchers suggest this is a particular problem in enclosed spaces with limited air-flow to help disperse them. An interesting video from Japan here shows high sensitivity camera tests and simulations:

In the fight against the coronavirus pandemic, a new research reveals how tiny droplets carrying the virus can remain in the air for some time.

 

[HH]

I can't disagree with this statement generally, but I do strongly with your previous point that masks could possibly be a 'placebo' in any accepted sense of the word

The sense I meant to convey was "a beneficial effect produced by a placebo drug or treatment, which cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to the patient's belief in that treatment". In most circumstances this is what I think the public wearing masks would achieve, i.e. a belief that they are doing some good, despite that they have no effect.

Now I do believe that they could do some good in some circumstances, if worn, taken off and maintained/replaced properly.

BTW I read the paper, but it's clearly biased so I'll wait for it to be peer reviewed.

 

[greyman42]

Then fine people for not wearing one. Make sure there are a few high profile cases then most people won't bother with the hassle.

I'm sure that the title of this is about wearing masks "without compulsion".

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure that the title of this is about wearing masks "without compulsion".

You're correct it is. But given a choice between compulsorily wearing a face covering and not being allowed to travel, I would choose compulsory face masks.