• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

Status
Not open for further replies.

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,605
If an operator decided to make the wearing of a face covering mandatory on their services then it can be enforced yes. Whether you already have a ticket or not.

We've been briefed not to contact BTP for social distancing assistance for passengers as ACPO or some other body has determined they have no legal powers to enforce it.

Whether you could consider it a byelaw offence under refusing a safety instruction is perhaps another matter.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,272
Location
St Albans
So you'd be thrown off the train if you didn't have a piece of cloth?
That's a bit of a strange statement. The point of refusal would be when entering the railway to start a journey. On unmanned stations, suitably displayed notices would make it obvious to anybody who wanted to claim that they hadn't been informed. (Cue daft posts about blind and illiterate passengers.
So for those who don't want to comply, don't start a journey, you might get thrown off if found to be ignoring the rules.
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,455
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
If an operator decided to make the wearing of a face covering mandatory on their services then it can be enforced yes. Whether you already have a ticket or not.
I don't think they could, at least not by railway staff. Railway workers have not suddenly become medical professionals who are able to judge whether someone has a respiratory which means they are advised not to wear a mask. Clearly it would be disability discrimination not to allow such people to travel without a face covering and therefore it would be impossible for anyone not medically trained to enforce any rules over mask wearing.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I don't think they could, at least not by railway staff. Railway workers have not suddenly become medical professionals who are able to judge whether someone has a respiratory which means they are advised not to wear a mask. Clearly it would be disability discrimination not to allow such people to travel without a face covering and therefore it would be impossible for anyone not medically trained to enforce any rules over mask wearing.

It's also disability discrimination to ask people to shield at home but we are doing...
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,455
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
It's also disability discrimination to ask people to shield at home but we are doing...
It may be acceptable to have different advice to some groups which they can choose to ignore if they so wish, as this doesn't actually prevent such people doing anything the rest of us can if they choose to, but it is entirely different to actually prevent people from doing something on the basis of their disability.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,650
Other EU countries with similar discrimination legislation seem to have made the wearing of face masks compulsory.

Isn't the wearing of motorbike helmets compulsory, except for certain religious groups?
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,455
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
Other EU countries with similar discrimination legislation seem to have made the wearing of face masks compulsory.

Isn't the wearing of motorbike helmets compulsory, except for certain religious groups?
The extent of what the government can do is greater than what private companies can do. Even if the government did make masks compulsory with medical exceptions I don't think TOC staff could be expected to enforce such measures.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
The extent of what the government can do is greater than what private companies can do.

In many ways, that isn't really true though.
The government and most public bodies have to cater for most of the population. For private companies, as long as they aren't basing their decisions on a protected characteristic, they can do pretty much anything (e.g. shops and pubs etc can refuse to serve you for any reason they like as long as it isn't down to gender, sexuality, race and a few others). Certainly adding "must wear a mask" to the list of requirements for public access is possible for many private companies. No mask = no entry. Similar to how some places ban hoodies etc (rather ironically atm haha).
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,455
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
In many ways, that isn't really true though.
The government and most public bodies have to cater for most of the population. For private companies, as long as they aren't basing their decisions on a protected characteristic, they can do pretty much anything (e.g. shops and pubs etc can refuse to serve you for any reason they like as long as it isn't down to gender, sexuality, race and a few others). Certainly adding "must wear a mask" to the list of requirements for public access is possible for many private companies. No mask = no entry. Similar to how some places ban hoodies etc (rather ironically atm haha).
But requiring a mask does prevent many with a protected characteristic from accessing a companies services on the basic of their protected characteristic and would therefore be indirectly discrimination which can only be justified in very limited circumstances. It is unrealistic to suggest that the evidence on masks is strong enough to be a defence to argue that it wouldn't be a reasonable adjustment to allow those whose conditions make wearing a mask impossible to access the services without wearing one which makes any policy of compulsory masks pointless as train company staff are not in a position to understand medical evidence as to whether someone's condition would prevent a mask being worn.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
But requiring a mask does prevent many with a protected characteristic from accessing a companies services on the basic of their protected characteristic and would therefore be indirectly discrimination which can only be justified in very limited circumstances. It is unrealistic to suggest that the evidence on masks is strong enough to be a defence to argue that it wouldn't be a reasonable adjustment to allow those whose conditions make wearing a mask impossible to access the services without wearing one which makes any policy of compulsory masks pointless as train company staff are not in a position to understand medical evidence as to whether someone's condition would prevent a mask being worn.

Presumably you are talking specifically about disabilities such as respiratory conditions where wearing a mask would further impede breathing or other facial conditions that would make wearing a mask difficult? Because I can't think of that the others (sexuality, gender, pregnancy, race, sexual orientation and religion) apply here (ok granted you could have a religion which didn't allow facial coverings, but I am no aware of one - quite the contrary).

Many private companies already have rules around the wearing of hoodies or bike helmets etc. Don't see why masks would be any different.
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,455
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
Presumably you are talking specifically about disabilities such as respiratory conditions where wearing a mask would further impede breathing or other facial conditions that would make wearing a mask difficult? Because I can't think of that the others (sexuality, gender, pregnancy, race, sexual orientation and religion) apply here (ok granted you could have a religion which didn't allow facial coverings, but I am no aware of one - quite the contrary).

Many private companies already have rules around the wearing of hoodies or bike helmets etc. Don't see why masks would be any different.
Mostly disability, yes. But that could additionally include some people with learning disabilities or autism who cannot wear a mask for sensory reasons and even some severe cases of claustrophobia where the presence of a mask could lead to panic attacks. Wearing a mask may also cause significant communication issues for many deaf people who often rely on lip reading.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,605
Well I've been good and complied with our policy today to a degree to see what it's like so I've been wearing a 'face covering' (looks like a dentist's mask, a white and blue side with ear loops and a nose wire but no real filtration value) while undertaking certain parts of my duties as a train guard to see how it goes, on the basis we should be setting a good example.

Less uncomfortable than I might have thought. Gets warm when you breathe out but instantly cool again when you breathe in. Didn't seem to get particularly damp and at one point I wore it for over an hour straight travelling passenger. Doesn't restrict conversation. I've been taking it off in my cab but putting it on for dispatch as it's a public door and security checks and replacing it once per round trip.

Have had some issues from colleagues though - various saying their glasses steam up and others saying it makes them feel claustrophobic and panicky. Some are trying neck tubes/buffs instead but I find wearing them with a collared shirt unpleasant. I don't like not being able to smile at people as I do that a lot to put them at ease.

All in all I think it is going to entirely depend on the individual as to whether it would put them off travelling or cause them problems.

I'm not sure how take up has been but I have seen others wearing them. Of my passengers today I would say about 1/4 wearing a face covering and 3/4 not.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,605
Once you take it off it's next to useless for reuse.

I'm not wearing it with any illusion of it providing any protection whatsoever, in fact I would choose not to. However we have been asked to set a good example to encourage passengers who actually are spending time in the saloons at length. I assume this is taken into account as we are only issued 3 for a 9-10 hour shift.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,266
Location
Greater Manchester
Commuters on the London Underground represent a 70 times increased risk of transmitting Covid-19 to other passengers when they do not use face coverings, researchers have said.
...
Engineers at MSC Software, a company which develops simulation software for the likes of Nasa and Airbus, have used computational fluid dynamics to simulate the spread of the virus in a Tube carriage between unprotected commuters.

Their model demonstrated that commuters engaging in conversation without a mask resulted in up to 70 times the spread of infected airborne droplets in just three minutes compared to masked commuters.
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...n-risk-70-times-higher-on-tube-without-masks/
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,691
Location
Mold, Clwyd
There is no advice on masks/face covering in Wales. It is neither recommended nor prohibited.
Wales PH believes there are reasons not to cover the face, as it is of negligible/unproven benefit (the science says) and that it creates a false feeling of protection.
Another reason is not to consume specialist supplies that are needed by health professionals.
Having said that, there are certainly people wearing masks/face coverings in Wales.
 

Skimpot flyer

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2012
Messages
1,613
I agree. Conversations are rarer than hen's teeth.
In the below-ground sections, it IS unusual, although family members travelling together are often chatting. But what about the sections of London Underground and London Overground, and Tramlink, that are above ground? Have you travelled on the Metropolitan Line north of Finchley Road or on the eastern part of the District Line recently, for example? People are on their mobiles constantly, speaking loudly and thus spraying and spreading microdroplets all over the place!
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,928
Location
Nottingham
An interesting study described here (onward link to full study on linked page): https://pedestrianobservations.com/...ed-states-giving-up-on-public-transportation/
Does social distancing on such vehicles help?

There is an answer, in the form of a study out of China about infection on a bus. The answer is no. Here is the graphic of who was and was not infected on a bus that one infected person rode for a 100-minute roundtrip (passengers sat in the same seats on both legs of the trip).
...
There were 67 passengers on the bus, including the index patient; the index patient infected 23 of them. Proximity to the patient … is not statistically significant.
...
If the bus would have had 20 passengers either way, spreading them around evenly would not help.

What does work is masks.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The slight flaw in that I suppose is that they don't know all the other cases came from that individual. But it is interesting and relevant that the person next to him was not infected. I wonder if an antibody test was also carried out on that person, though?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
There was a study posted on this thread (since moved to another thread) which seemed to suggest that social distancing was basically pointless on public transport (as opposed to mask wearing).

It seems as though the DfT are getting it as wrong as possible.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,373
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
It seems as though the DfT are getting it as wrong as possible.

So what's the right answer? There seem to be a dozen different opinions on this forum on the right way to handle train travel during a pandemic and from my (non rail industry) perspective it's pretty confusing. What would folks here advise the DfT, other than 'until we say otherwise, don't travel by train unless it's essential'.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
Do what france do, block every other seat out of use, put meter markings on the floor and make face covering compulsory.
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
Heard a snippet on the radio news:

One of the Focus's (can't remember which one) surveyed public transport users and found that two thirds would only be prepared to travel on it if face mask wearing were made compulsory.
Quite right! Margaret Thatcher would be proud that one of her successors has managed to get public transport users to want to hide their faces where they're out.:rolleyes:
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
Quite right! Margaret Thatcher would be proud that one of her successors has managed to get public transport users to want to hide their faces where they're out.:rolleyes:

Indeed, it is a strange situation.

However, I cannot see how it's any worse, infact I'd say it's preferable to getting public transport users not to use public transport at all.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,272
Location
St Albans
Heard a snippet on the radio news:

One of the Focus's (can't remember which one) surveyed public transport users and found that two thirds would only be prepared to travel on it if face mask wearing were made compulsory.
Which I think, whatever the mixed messages from the experts are, will be the mechanism by which it will become mandatory by peer pressure, at least for those who want to use public transport.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top