Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[Stigy]

Indeed, I know someone who broke their ankle quite badly and is, nearly two years later, in pain and having to use a stick to get around. Even lesser injuries can have an impact, my partner broke a metatarsal foot a year ago and still can't stand or walk as long as they used to without pain.

Also, depending on the break, it can require amputation if not dealt with in time. Depending on the mechanism of injury, and by the nature of what happened, I’d imagine any such break would be quite traumatic.

 

[Grumpy Git]

70 096 290470 Salisbury Tunnel Junction D819

Seen at Salisbury Tunnel Junction on the 29th of April 1970 Warship D819 Goliath is on the 1O12 (I think) 13.10 Exeter SD to Waterloo service. The loco was withdrawn in October 1971.

www.flickr.com

Brilliant and almost 50 years to the day..................... I rest my case re. vegetation.

This shot facing the opposite way is even more evidence (and of the two speed limits still in place today):

70 095 290470 Salisbury Tunnel Junction D813

Seen at Salisbury Tunnel Junction on the 29th of April 1970 Warship D813 Diadem is on the 1V13 13.10 Waterloo to Exeter SD service. The loco was withdrawn on the first day of 1972.

www.flickr.com

 

[mpthomson]

Indeed; I find the term potentially more inappropriate than describing the injury. For instance if it were the example you gave, that would be better described as the injury itself. One can always euphemise when the outcome is uncertain, rather than always use that term.

We are all hoping for the best for the driver.

The term has become a bit of a meaningless affectation adopted by the police (particularly) and other agencies to signify anything other than minor cuts and bruises or a simple fracture. I wish they'd stop using it, to be honest. Many injuries have the potential to be 'life changing' if not dealt with quickly or appropriately.

 

[Snow1964]

You beat me to it! My operating assumption would be self-insurance (inherited from BR days) but can anyone else shed light?

Most self insure, but have a catastrophe insurance. (I forget it’s official name), but effectively it is an Insurance with a very high excess, something like £10m. Details are usually available by looking at the companies Accounts on Companies House website, and looking in the notes under liabilites or contingencies.

Therefore only covered for huge claim events, which would have severe impact on cashflow.

These types of Insurance will have a lead insurer, and percentages will be reinsured with others so lead insurer only has exposure to say 20%

 

[Efini92]

As far as I could see yesterday, the Rail Adhesion train did not run on Saturday or Sunday. One was never activated to run, one was cancelled. One is showing as having run on Friday. Certainly could be a factor.

I’d say you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I believe it’s a falling gradient towards the tunnel as well.

 

[Gloster]

BBC now saying that both trains reached Salisbury Tunnel Junction at the same time.

Isn’t that a definition of a collision?

 

[cjmillsnun]

There is no way by this stage they don't know *what* happened. There are still, even now, news outlets putting out stuff about the first train having hit something and/or being derailed.

It really doesn't look good to the wider audience, no one seemingly in charge of what's going on.

Yes they know what happened as does everyone else. We can see that.

But to give reassurance they need to know *why* it happened. Was there leaf fall? Was it driver error? was it a maintenance issues with either the track, signalling or one or both of the units? was it signaller error? What caused that problem? If it’s infrastructure is it unique to the area? Was this a deliberate action by a driver or signaller? If one of the units did strike something what was it? How did it get there?

The last thing we need for the railway is something like the knee-jerk reaction the the GNER crash at Welham Green which crippled the national network for weeks and was largely unnecessary. to accurately determine this requires the evidence to be carefully gone through

A statement could be put out stating that the investigations are ongoing and that preliminary findings will be published soon. But even with Greyrigg this took over a week.

 

[WesternBiker]

Most self insure, but have a catastrophe insurance. (I forget it’s official name), but effectively it is an Insurance with a very high excess, something like £10m. Details are usually available by looking at the companies Accounts on Companies House website, and looking in the notes under liabilites or contingencies.

Therefore only covered for huge claim events, which would have severe impact on cashflow.

These types of Insurance will have a lead insurer, and percentages will be reinsured with others so lead insurer only has exposure to say 20%

Thanks - very helpful. It seems unlikely to apply in this case, then.

70 096 290470 Salisbury Tunnel Junction D819

Seen at Salisbury Tunnel Junction on the 29th of April 1970 Warship D819 Goliath is on the 1O12 (I think) 13.10 Exeter SD to Waterloo service. The loco was withdrawn in October 1971.

www.flickr.com

Great picture - and shows just how vegetation management has fallen away in the decades since.

 

[2HAP]

Isn’t that a definition of a collision?

What I was getting at was the BBC had changed their story from a stationary train being run into (original claim) to both trains arriving at the junction at the same time and colliding.

 

[Ianno87]

What I was getting at was the BBC had changed their story from a stationary train being run into (original claim) to both trains arriving at the junction at the same time and colliding.

I.e. the BBC now suggesting that both trains were moving at the time of collision.

 

[BrianW]

70 096 290470 Salisbury Tunnel Junction D819

Seen at Salisbury Tunnel Junction on the 29th of April 1970 Warship D819 Goliath is on the 1O12 (I think) 13.10 Exeter SD to Waterloo service. The loco was withdrawn in October 1971.

www.flickr.com

and this https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873585803

These pictures from 50 years ago are worth 2000 words. Not only can we see the amount of growth of vegetation since but also we can see the kind of 'bowl' into which leaves and twigs etc wil have been blown and accumulate. The weekend weather was also very wet and windy. I note that Chiltern Trains run a 'leaf fall timetable' https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/leaf-fall-2021-timetable-starts-early-october; there may be others too. Also noting the running and not of track-cleaning. And the difficulty of getting authoritative, accurate reporting (and assistance?) of a weekend evening; and clock-change. Many possible contributory factors to consider.
Meanwhile wishing well to all affected, whatever degree of life-change and lessons-learning ahead.
ps Has anyone heard anything from anyone on the southbound train?

 

[Snow1964]

Isn’t that a definition of a collision?

Only if using same track.

There are places like Southampton tunnel where 2 trains can arrive simultaneously and pass through side by side as both tracks have full bi-direction signalling. There are 4 track sections both ends. (However, Fisherton tunnel is one track in each direction)

 

[Stigy]

Only if using same track.

There are places like Southampton tunnel where 2 trains can arrive simultaneously and pass through side by side as both tracks have full bi-direction signalling. There are 4 track sections both ends. (However, Fisherton tunnel is one track in each direction)

The definition of a collision is two moving articles coming together, which I guess they have done, even if one was marginally in front of the other?

 

[AlterEgo]

BBC now saying that both trains reached Salisbury Tunnel Junction at the same time.

Salisbury train crash: Service ran through red light after wheel slip

Investigators say one of the two trains suffered a "wheel slide" before the collision.

www.bbc.co.uk

This makes a lot more sense. How has it taken three days for this to come to light? Where’s the “seven minute gap” information come from? Incredible that not even the sequence of events is clear!

 

[SWTCommuter]

Brilliant and almost 50 years to the day..................... I rest my case re. vegetation.

This shot facing the opposite way is even more evidence (and of the two speed limits still in place today):

This link includes a few shots taken in 1979 showing how much the vegetation increased in just a few years.
www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/salisbury-to-southampton--eastleigh.html

 

[swt_passenger]

This makes a lot more sense. How has it taken three days for this to come to light? Where’s the “seven minute gap” information come from? Incredible that not even the sequence of events is clear!

I’m sure “only one incident” was being discussed here 24 hours ago following BTP tweets etc.

Totally guessing but I suspect 7 mins came from a passenger report that ended up being interpreted in the wrong order. Perhaps something like “there was a bang and we sat there for 6 or 7 minutes before someone told us there’s been a collision”?

But as has been pointed out a few times, “7 mins” seems to have taken on a life of its own in the media…

 

[Thumper1127]

South Today have just said investigations will centre on why the SWR passed a red signal. Also, on a positive, the Driver is not as badly injured as first thought.

South Today have just said investigations will centre on why the SWR passed a red signal. Also, on a positive, the Driver is not as badly injured as first thought.

BTW, South Today are usually quite cautious on making an outright statement of this kind if they don’t have the correct, confirmed, info.

 

[Bigfoot]

How do you make multiple REC calls?
I was under the impression that once you hit the big red button you stay connected to the signaller until disconnected.

Makes one to report brake application/train divided, goes back to investigate, makes another to report what they have found maybe?

Exactly my thoughts. I'd do the same, red button rec call gmsr gets you to the front of the queue, and with all that is going on its the priority to convey the information.

 

[Deepgreen]

This makes a lot more sense. How has it taken three days for this to come to light? Where’s the “seven minute gap” information come from? Incredible that not even the sequence of events is clear!

The sequence of events may well be very clear - to some, who may not be able to share that, either here or with the press.

 

[QueensCurve]

Only if using same track.

There are places like Southampton tunnel where 2 trains can arrive simultaneously and pass through side by side as both tracks have full bi-direction signalling. There are 4 track sections both ends. (However, Fisherton tunnel is one track in each direction)

In the mid 1980s, after the 1985 Dundee remodelling, Aberdeen to Glasgow and Dundee to Edinburgh services would depart in parallel with the Glasgow crossing onto the down line at Camperdown Junction and regaining the up beyond Tay Bridge Junction. This was not possible in the other direction because of the lack of a facing Xover on the Tay Bridge approach ramp.

 

[AlterEgo]

The sequence of events may well be very clear - to some, who may not be able to share that, either here or with the press.

I'm sure the sequence is clear to NR/RAIB. The issue is they should communicate they at least know *what* has happened even if the cause is still a mystery.

 

[adsbenham]

I've lost count how many times I've been on a train at that signal due to the stopper from Basingstoke normally following the 158 from Romsey into Salisbury (when they share platform 6)

In my experience the Waterloo to Exeter service comes in to platform 3, services from Romsey come in to 4/6

 

[bramling]

The sequence of events may well be very clear - to some, who may not be able to share that, either here or with the press.

This is why institutions like Network Rail and TOCs have press offices.

Given the original misinformation which came out, it’s important to get a clear sequence of events out.

I’m not criticising the original information as it’s easy to see why the initial reports may have contained inaccuracies, but 24 hours isn’t an unreasonable time to be able to at least clarify that a collision occurred following a SPAD.

It has simply allowed a breeding ground for more fanciful stuff to circulate around the media, and once again the industry comes out looking silly.

What it really looks like is there’s no one single voice for “the railway”, which again is an example of how the fragmented structure serves us badly.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is why institutions like Network Rail and TOCs have press offices.

Given the original misinformation which came out, it’s important to get a clear sequence of events out.

I’m not criticising the original information as it’s easy to see why the initial reports may have contained inaccuracies, but 24 hours isn’t an unreasonable time to be able to at least clarify that a collision occurred following a SPAD.

It has simply allowed a breeding ground for more fanciful stuff to circulate around the media, and once again the industry comes out looking silly.

What it really looks like is there’s no one single voice for “the railway”, which again is an example of how the fragmented structure serves us badly.

And of course the longer it goes on the likelihood of the mainstream media ever going back and correcting their earliest stories decreases even more.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is why institutions like Network Rail and TOCs have press offices.

Given the original misinformation which came out, it’s important to get a clear sequence of events out.

I’m not criticising the original information as it’s easy to see why the initial reports may have contained inaccuracies, but 24 hours isn’t an unreasonable time to be able to at least clarify that a collision occurred following a SPAD.

It has simply allowed a breeding ground for more fanciful stuff to circulate around the media, and once again the industry comes out looking silly.

What it really looks like is there’s no one single voice for “the railway”, which again is an example of how the fragmented structure serves us badly.

Agreed - a single voice would be useful. However, modern society being what it is, even a single voice would not be able to stifle speculation, conspiracy theories, immediate conclusions, etc. The involvement of the police has seemingly turned it into a potential criminal case, so I would expect nothing concrete for a while. Incidentally, is the eastern side of Laverstock triangle operating? I ask merely because a steam special is booked over it on Saturday and another forum I frequent is curious about the likelihood of it runnning.

 

[JN114]

Incidentally, is the eastern side of Laverstock triangle operating?

Not at present.

 

[Grumpy Git]

and this https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873585803

I refer you to my earlier post #777 with the identical image embedded.

 

[HowardGWR]

The definition of a collision is two moving articles coming together, which I guess they have done, even if one was marginally in front of the other?

A collision can take place between a moving object and a stationery one. See Newton's laws.

 

[Annetts key]

Incidentally, is the eastern side of Laverstock triangle operating? I ask merely because a steam special is booked over it on Saturday and another forum I frequent is curious about the likelihood of it runnning.

The three junctions (Tunnel Junction, Laverstock North, and Laverstock South are all under the protection of a T3 occupation. Before any train service will be allowed to operate, the investigation evidence gathering has to conclude. The BTP have to hand the scene over to the RIAB. RIAB may well do further investigation. They then have to hand the scene back to Network Rail. Then the trains need to be removed. Then extensive testing of the signalling system will be carried out. But if the points and track are damaged too much, they may have to have some work done on them first.
Once all the investigation testing has been done, then the damaged track and point work needs to be repaired or replaced. The tunnel walls and roof need to be inspected and if needed, repaired.

I would be very surprised if all this has been completed before Saturday morning.

A collision can take place between a moving object and a stationery one. See Newton's laws.

Technically speaking, all objects are in motion. The question is really the relative motion between two objects.

 

[Ambient Sheep]

One little question that's been bugging me the whole thread: why is it called Salisbury Tunnel Junction when the tunnel itself is called Fisherton Tunnel?

I realise it's probably just some kind of historical anomaly but I wondered if there was an actual definite reason/explanation.


While I'm here, my best wishes go out to the injured driver and indeed all those affected by this incident.