Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[neonison]

Passenger evacuated from Salisbury crash says it was a 'miracle' no one died

Abigail Taylor was among those evacuated after the crash between two trains in Wiltshire last night.

www.google.co.uk

In the photo on the left you can clearly see 158 to the right and down the tunnel the wreckage of the other 2

A quick google search would’ve found you that instead of feeling the need to pipe up

I posted the question to which Dan G replied so perhaps you want to take a shot at me? I simply asked as I had not understood where this had stopped or by how much it was separated and had not seen any pictures to illustrate this.
Excuse me for wanting more detail but that is what the previous 22 pages have all been about. I am not unusual in this request and there is absolutely no need to be unkind.

For the record, the first 60 Google hits on 'Salisbury Derailment' fails to find one picture of the leading GWR 158 (and indeed manages to show a picture from Carmont).

Here you go:

Thank you.

 

[Elecman]

What possible link is there between replacing S&C in Salisbury station / ‘painting’ Fisherton tunnel (whatever that means) back in May, and an alleged signalling problem in November?

wonder if they have misreported POINTING for painting

 

[norbitonflyer]

ITV meridian news showed a Google Earth animation of the crash. It appeared (to me at least) to show, both trains running in the same direction, but on adjacent lines.
The right train derailed middle coach inside the tunnel, and the left train came alongside it from behind, also in the same direction. And hit the front coach which was in the middle of the line

Did they get their report wrong, or do trains actually run in either direction, on both tracks inside the tunnel? Not something I've often seen, a train running wrong line unless turning back on a signal ...
Or maybe the animation was just for the ordinary Joe and wasn't intended to represent what actually happened...

Is that animation still on line?

There are certainly places where both tracks are signalled for bi-directional use - the tunnels outside Kings Cross, Worcester Foregate Street, the western approach to Lincoln, to name but three. But Salisbury isn't one of them - if it had been, both trains could both have been signalled in to the station at the same time and the collision might not have happened.

 

[Eccles1983]

Is there actually still a requirement to place protection on continuously track circuited or axle counter’d lines, to protect a stopped train?

Yes, even if it was removed or amended from the rule book you'd do it anyway, its drummed into you. Safety is paramount.

Each driving cab has red flags, 10 dets and a pair, sometimes 2 pairs of TC clips.

This is what you replied to. Nothing about them coming off the road.

Which I correctly pointed out was wrong, and would have you in severe bother if you did this for a train stopped out of course without very very good reason as detailed in the rule book.

 

[the sniper]

Here you go:

I wonder who'll have the most reliable 'Network Rail source', the Telegraph or the Daily Mail...?

 

[30907]

Here you go:

Thanks, appreciated.
Basically, "it could have been x y or z but we don't know" and a vaguely related comment about previous engineering work.

 

[Bigfoot]

Here you go:

British Transport Police said there was no evidence the driver of the train that had been hit had activated his GPRS button, which warns signallers and other drivers of an emergency.

Gprs seems to be a mistake, probably meaning gsmr.

It's my understanding that the driver of the GWR made multiple REC gsmr calls.

Again more media inaccuracies.

 

[Need2]

It's my understanding that the driver of the GWR made multiple REC gsmr calls.

How do you make multiple REC calls?
I was under the impression that once you hit the big red button you stay connected to the signaller until disconnected.

 

[johnselekta]

I don't know what a REC call is or how it works, but they announced the signal failure would be resolved by around 1800, the smash happened 45min after IIRC, maybe he made multiple failed calls?

 

[Nippy]

How do you make multiple REC calls?
I was under the impression that once you hit the big red button you stay connected to the signaller until disconnected.

Makes one to report brake application/train divided, goes back to investigate, makes another to report what they have found maybe?

 

[westcoaster]

I posted the question to which Dan G replied so perhaps you want to take a shot at me? I simply asked as I had not understood where this had stopped or by how much it was separated and had not seen any pictures to illustrate this.
Excuse me for wanting more detail but that is what the previous 22 pages have all been about. I am not unusual in this request and there is absolutely no need to be unkind.

For the record, the first 60 Google hits on 'Salisbury Derailment' fails to find one picture of the leading GWR 158 (and indeed manages to show a picture from Carmont).


Thank you.

View attachment 104959

Not much to see from this, the units headlamps were flashing though

here is the picture of the leading GFW 158, think it was posted back on page 2 or 3.

 

[JamesT]

Gprs seems to be a mistake, probably meaning gsmr.

It's my understanding that the driver of the GWR made multiple REC gsmr calls.

Again more media inaccuracies.

I can’t find the coverage now, but I’m pretty sure the claim that the GSMR wasn’t used came directly from BTP reading out a statement. BTP may have got that wrong, but the media haven’t been inaccurate in conveying that information.

 

[357]

I don't know what a REC call is or how it works, but they announced the signal failure would be resolved by around 1800, the smash happened 45min after IIRC, maybe he made multiple failed calls?

GSMR is not connected to the signalling system. It is a train radio system that happens to include the signaller.

 

[Tio Terry]

So much speculation! You don't know what happened, accept that and wait for the RAIB interim report. Nothing else is valid.

GSMR is not connected to the signalling system. It is a train radio system that happens to include the signaller.

No, it is a train radio system that specifically includes the signaller. It would not exist if there was no need for the signaller to speak to the train crew and passengers.

It is not interconnected to the signalling system and cannot put signals to their most restrictive aspect. The decision to do that rest with the signaller.

 

[Signal Head]

here is the picture of the leading GFW 158, think it was posted back on page 2 or 3.

No it isn't, that's the rear of the South Western standing across Tunnel Junction.

 

[Annetts key]

While we are myth busting, not all signalling control panels have an emergency all signals on / to danger button or switch either. And even where it is provided, it’s not big or necessarily red.

Also most signallers will operate the individual signal buttons / switches / controls in preference to using the group all signals on / to danger button or switch or control.

 

[sw1ller]

Ignoring absolute block R/Gs, I should have added.

Alright, I won’t bother in future.

 

[MarkyT]

So much speculation! You don't know what happened, accept that and wait for the RAIB interim report. Nothing else is valid.


No, it is a train radio system that specifically includes the signaller. It would not exist if there was no need for the signaller to speak to the train crew and passengers.

It is not interconnected to the signalling system and cannot put signals to their most restrictive aspect. The decision to do that rest with the signaller.

And on modern systems, signallers have various methods to achieve that. Normal entrance buttons can be pulled to replace signals individually one by one, 'group replacement' controls operated where provided for all signals in particular defined junction or station areas, and 'all signals at red' controls for an entire interlocking. The emergency call functionality, automatically stopping all other traffic in the cell area directly, really bypasses any need to connect the radio system to the signalling.

 

[Annetts key]

Here are some pictures of one of the GWR 158 units in the tunnel:

 

[Bertie the bus]

I can’t find the coverage now, but I’m pretty sure the claim that the GSMR wasn’t used came directly from BTP reading out a statement. BTP may have got that wrong, but the media haven’t been inaccurate in conveying that information.

People love to blame the media but much of the confusion surrounding this incident is due to erroneous or conflicting information provided to the media by the railway and its (reported) employees.

 

[45669]

Here are some pictures of the leading GWR 1F30 158 unit:
View attachment 105037View attachment 105038

I thought that that was the rear unit!

 

[Annetts key]

People love to blame the media but much of the confusion surrounding this incident is due to erroneous or conflicting information provided to the media by the railway and its (reported) employees.

Well, because the railway is very complex, rather a lot of railway staff don’t have the full knowledge to explain things in any great detail. It’s not their fault. It’s just that there are so many different elements within all the different disciplines, trades and jobs. Plus they themselves may have been provided with misinformation.

It’s a bit like asking a plumber to explain the electrical wiring standards…

 

[ivorytoast28]

Here are some pictures of the leading GWR 1F30 158 unit:
View attachment 105037View attachment 105038

That's the rear part, the front is behind the cameraman

I thought that that was the rear unit!

Yes, it is

 

[Annetts key]

I thought that that was the rear unit!

Both trains were travelling towards the tunnel to get to Salisbury. The junction outside the tunnel (Tunnel Junction) is where the two lines converged.

Ahh, sorry, I thought the question was, never mind…

 

[Bertie the bus]

Well, because the railway is very complex, rather a lot of railway staff don’t have the full knowledge to explain things in any great detail. It’s not their fault. It’s just that there are so many different elements within all the different disciplines, trades and jobs. Plus they themselves may have been provided with misinformation.

It’s a bit like asking a plumber to explain the electrical wiring standards…

Of course it is their fault. If you don't know what you are talking about then don't talk to the media. If you are going to talk to the media and don't have all the information, first issue a fairly bland holding statement and then update them when you have more facts. Don't just make stuff up and give them a press statement.

 

[45669]

Both trains were travelling towards the tunnel to get to Salisbury. The junction outside the tunnel (Tunnel Junction) is where the two lines converged.

That's right.

 

[320320]

All we know is that it passed the signal. What aspect if any was showing, the reason it was passed and whether it was legitimately passed is not known.

Is there any history of rail adhesion issues in the area?, it seems odd to me that rail adhesion issues would have manifested so suddenly while trains were using the track all day (rather than, say, the first trains of the day after an overnight autumn storm).

Depending on the circumstances, worse than expected rail adhesion can appear suddenly.

If it’s dry and trains have been compacting leaves on the rails it only takes the lightest of drizzle to instantly turn the track into the proverbial ice rink.

 

[Gloster]

I think that one think that we have learned, although it will probably be forgotten by the time there is another accident, is that Twitter, forums, the media and even official sources cannot be relied on. What a surprise! Confused claims by people who were on the trains/on another train/heard the accident/got a hasty ‘phone call from somebody become established fact, whether true or not. Forums don’t always manage to differentiate between supposition, guesswork and known facts; and some are more careful than others to try and avoid making claims they can’t substantiate. The media, even their transport specialists, may know about transport policy, but know nothing about railway operation. Even the ‘professionals’ can get it wrong and their statements are what others may base their deductions on. Except for facts that we can be absolutely certain of, we really have to limit our posts.

 

[DazrahT]

I think that one think that we have learned, although it will probably be forgotten by the time there is another accident, is that Twitter, forums, the media and even official sources cannot be relied on. What a surprise! Confused claims by people who were on the trains/on another train/heard the accident/got a hasty ‘phone call from somebody become established fact, whether true or not. Forums don’t always manage to differentiate between supposition, guesswork and known facts; and some are more careful than others to try and avoid making claims they can’t substantiate. The media, even their transport specialists, may know about transport policy, but know nothing about railway operation. Even the ‘professionals’ can get it wrong and their statements are what others may base their deductions on. Except for facts that we can be absolutely certain of, we really have to limit our posts.

I'm nodding at every single word of this

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course it is their fault. If you don't know what you are talking about then don't talk to the media. If you are going to talk to the media and don't have all the information, first issue a fairly bland holding statement and then update them when you have more facts. Don't just make stuff up and give them a press statement.

Precisely. NR's statements have been misinformation from the outset and only now is the situation starting to become a little less foggy.