Colne-Skipton

[61653 HTAFC]

As I’ve said, SELRAP should just learn when to give up on the link to Skipton, be realistic and actually lobby for improvements for what they already have. They should try and seek improvements on the branch itself to speed things up a little (maybe a passing loop to allow for 2tph, 1 for Manchester and 1 for Preston)

This, 100%. If I lived on the Colne line I'd be very annoyed that the most vocal campaign group for the route was obsessed with pie-in-the-sky reopening ideas instead of more realistic and achievable goals.

 

[323235]

The thing about Colne - Skipton is it’s got the support of Lancashire County Council , Pendle Borough Council, Nelson Town Council, Local MPs and Andrew Stephenson nearly got it over the line as part of levelling up if COVID funding difficulties hadn’t arisen. Lancashire Council Council has safeguarded some of the alignment in their jurisdiction.

I therefore do not consider this a basket case situation with that many people backing it.

 

[Ken H]

Easier solutions than Colne - Skipton

1. A curve at Gannow to allow Colne trains to run via Copy Pit to wherever. I would send them to Manchester rather than to Leeds.
2. Improve the bus service that runs Burnley - Keighley. Use the M65 more rather than ploughing through the likes of Brierfield. People can transfer at Keighley to a train, or the buses to Leeds or Bradford.
3. Improve the Wizz. Needs to be every 30 minutes. Maybe extend the M5 to Skipton.

If the suggestion above of an interchange at Rose Grove is to happen you need better facilities at that station. And maybe some buses.

 

[zwk500]

The thing about Colne - Skipton is it’s got the support of Lancashire County Council , Pendle Borough Council, Nelson Town Council, Local MPs and Andrew Stephenson nearly got it over the line as part of levelling up if COVID funding difficulties hadn’t arisen. Lancashire Council Council has safeguarded some of the alignment in their jurisdiction.

I therefore do not consider this a basket case situation with that many people backing it.

Lewes-Uckfield has the expressed support of East Sussex County Council yet they still keep adding more issues against reinstatement instead of less.

 

[Neptune]

The thing about Colne - Skipton is it’s got the support of Lancashire County Council , Pendle Borough Council, Nelson Town Council, Local MPs and Andrew Stephenson nearly got it over the line as part of levelling up if COVID funding difficulties hadn’t arisen. Lancashire Council Council has safeguarded some of the alignment in their jurisdiction.

I therefore do not consider this a basket case situation with that many people backing it.

Of course they backed it (not financially of course, perish the thought). They only do it to suit their own agendas (ie votes).

Easier solutions than Colne - Skipton

1. A curve at Gannow to allow Colne trains to run via Copy Pit to wherever. I would send them to Manchester rather than to Leeds.
2. Improve the bus service that runs Burnley - Keighley. Use the M65 more rather than ploughing through the likes of Brierfield. People can transfer at Keighley to a train, or the buses to Leeds or Bradford.
3. Improve the Wizz. Needs to be every 30 minutes. Maybe extend the M5 to Skipton.

If the suggestion above of an interchange at Rose Grove is to happen you need better facilities at that station. And maybe some buses.

If the connection is timed at no more than 10 minutes then a decent heated and enclosed shelter would suffice. Much cheaper and more realistic than a new curve at Gannow Junction.

 

[Bald Rick]

The thing about Colne - Skipton is it’s got the support of Lancashire County Council , Pendle Borough Council, Nelson Town Council, Local MPs and Andrew Stephenson nearly got it over the line as part of levelling up if COVID funding difficulties hadn’t arisen. Lancashire Council Council has safeguarded some of the alignment in their jurisdiction.

I therefore do not consider this a basket case situation with that many people backing it.

How much money have they put into this? That’s what real support is, not ‘thoughts and prayers’.

 

[fishwomp]

How much money have they put into this? That’s what real support is, not ‘thoughts and prayers’.

Well, that would also be an astonishing waste of council funds.. they may not have any realistic transport proposals to spend their money on, but am sure they have other priorities that should /would be higher

 

[A0wen]

Easier solutions than Colne - Skipton

1. A curve at Gannow to allow Colne trains to run via Copy Pit to wherever. I would send them to Manchester rather than to Leeds.

You could run direct Colne - Manchester trains now without any new track at all if you ran them via Blackburn.

 

[johnB66]

Seems like a grasping at straws reason. Surely anyone can see that Nelson’s woes cannot be put at the door of a lack of rail link to Skipton. After all, it has a direct rail link to Burnley, Blackburn, Preston and 1 change for Bradford, Leeds, Rochdale and Manchester. It’s woes are evidently not due to a lack of connectivity to far far bigger and more important places than Skipton.

Very similar I imagine. Sod all chance.

I think there is a bit more at play than simply rail services although the rail service Nelson currently has is useless. Goes nowhere in one direction, and takes forever in the other direction.

I agree that Nelson's woes cant be laid at the foot of railway closures. However in any sort of economic development, accessibility is key, and often it is the benefits that aren't immediately obvious that are the most beneficial.

Personally, I would support the scheme simply because I like to go to Skipton for a beer, but you could never justify building a railway for that.

In terms of levelling up, any investment undertaken by government peaks the interest of developers in terms of house building and employment, this, in the medium term, leads to rising property prices and increased economic activity. Most developers have the maxim, "build it and they will come" and more often than not this is true.

Government also benefit from this development by increased tax revenues (and less welfare payments) so their financial return is not solely in terms of track access fees and journeys. Pendle, and Nelson in particular are hugely deprived, yet are surrounded by relatively wealthy rural areas.

Increasing public transport provision enables poorer citizens to seek employment elsewhere whilst commuting from home, instead of relocating to the city and increasing demand further there. Money then flows into the local town, creating local employment. In areas where motorways aren't too prevalent these affects are easily spotted.

Take Bacup in Lancashire, a small town which lost its rail link in the 60s. Awful access by road and now an economic backwater. Compare this with nearby Hebden Bridge which has similar population, similar surrounding countryside, similar poor road access, but a brilliant rail service. Then look at the general wealth in each.

Politically, it should be a no-brainer (and more so in marginal seats such as Pendle). The biggest problem with this scheme is what to link in terms of passenger journeys especially along the Burnley - Skipton section. Leeds (or possibly Bradford) to the east is obvious, but it is less clear to the west. Westward the journey needs to connect somewhere, and not end somewhere that nobody wants to go to such as Blackburn.

However, direct services to Manchester seem problematic given capacity issues in that city, and current route layouts / constraints. Maybe a Leeds Liverpool "canal" route may work? Fanciful, but it would at least create a new service linking towns such as st Helens and Wigan with east Lancashire and Yorkshire, and would at least offer something new, rather than duplicate something that already exists

One last thought, motorways don't generate revenue (although they do generate traffic!), but we seemed keen to build them until relatively recently, so it does make you wonder why cost is such an issue..

 

[quantinghome]

Easier solutions than Colne - Skipton

1. A curve at Gannow to allow Colne trains to run via Copy Pit to wherever. I would send them to Manchester rather than to Leeds.
2. Improve the bus service that runs Burnley - Keighley. Use the M65 more rather than ploughing through the likes of Brierfield. People can transfer at Keighley to a train, or the buses to Leeds or Bradford.
3. Improve the Wizz. Needs to be every 30 minutes. Maybe extend the M5 to Skipton.

If the suggestion above of an interchange at Rose Grove is to happen you need better facilities at that station. And maybe some buses.

As an expansion on 2, run the Burnley - Keighley bus direct to Steeton & Silsden station, align the timetables and have through-ticketing. Perhaps run the bus as a limited-stop express service. Then monitor to see if it generates sufficient through passengers to justify reinstating Colne-Skipton (it won't).

 

[A0wen]

Increasing public transport provision enables poorer citizens to seek employment elsewhere whilst commuting from home, instead of relocating to the city and increasing demand further there. Money then flows into the local town, creating local employment. In areas where motorways aren't too prevalent these affects are easily spotted.

Take Bacup in Lancashire, a small town which lost its rail link in the 60s. Awful access by road and now an economic backwater. Compare this with nearby Hebden Bridge which has similar population, similar surrounding countryside, similar poor road access, but a brilliant rail service. Then look at the general wealth in each.

They're not really comparable though - Hebden Bridge is 1/3rd the size of Bacup.

Hebden Bridge's road network, whilst not great, is better than the roads to / from Bacup. Hebden's on the main road from Halifax to Burnley and from Todmorden down to Rochdale.

In terms of railway connectivity Bacup only had links southwards to Rochdale (closed in 1952) and Bury (closed in 1966) - nothing heading northwards to Burnley for example. Whereas Hebden Bridge was on a mainline towards Halifax and Leeds going east and Manchester, Burnley and Preston heading west.

It's doubtful if Bacup's rail link to Bury had survived whether it would be in a better position than it is today - is it in any worse position than, say, Darwen (which is bigger) or Littleborough that are a similar distance out from Manchester yet retained their rail link ?

 

[johnB66]

The point was really to illustrate the difference in affluence caused by connectivity rather than the semantics of whether Bacup should have a rail link. They are broadly similar places geographically, one with excellent rail links today, one without. The fact that hebden bridge is smaller, doesnt affect GDP per capita. Main roads or not, Hebdens roads are tortuous taking ages to get anywhere, just like Bacup.

I’ve been going to Hebden Bridge for over 40 years and I remember it being fairly down at heel at the outset when the train service was just OK. Bacup is far worse than Darwen: the latter is seeing a great deal of investment (some of which is materialising on the back of the enhanced Manchester rail link - developers often advertise houses as only xx minutes from the city etc). I undertake bank valuations for a living and there arent too may places more economically depressed than Bacup. Accessibility is always key.

Going back to the point of colne skipton, it is a fairly useless scheme in terms of travelling from colne to skipton. The point is, such a scheme would give a lift to the depressed areas of Pendle and increase the life chances of people there by being able to commute without cars (in terms of connectivity, Im sure most people in hebden bridge dont actually work there). It also has the potential to send freight over the pennines without getting delayed in manchester and would free up capacity there, could provide better car free opportunities for urban people to access the yorkshire dales, and may increase travel opportunities for everybody along that entire corridor, conceivably from preston / west lancs through to skipton.

The interest from Drax illustrates a more regional role for such a short stretch of track. In this respect the proposal has more going for it than say the welsh valley lines that were reopened and catered for local issues only. The question is, what value do you place on the "fringe benefits" Whilst this does fall outside my expertise, it is interesting to note that the french managed to justify building a lot of rail infrastructure by basing payback periods over 50 plus years. In the UK we typically looked at 25 years. Therefore our marginal schemes always looked less affordable.

 

[30907]

Take Bacup in Lancashire, a small town which lost its rail link in the 60s. Awful access by road and now an economic backwater. Compare this with nearby Hebden Bridge which has similar population, similar surrounding countryside, similar poor road access, but a brilliant rail service. Then look at the general wealth in each.

In addition to AOwen's point, I think you will find that Hebden Bridge began to recover before the growth of Metro services (and benefits still from them to the extent of 4tph).

Westward the journey needs to connect somewhere, and not end somewhere that nobody wants to go to such as Blackburn.

Objection, m'Lud - seriously, the route goes to Preston too.

 

[Ken H]

In addition to AOwen's point, I think you will find that Hebden Bridge began to recover before the growth of Metro services (and benefits still from them to the extent of 4tph).

HB has reinvented itself. Canalside eating etc. And a load of new age stuff. Last time I went, loads eating outside in the sun (It was June last year)

 

[muddythefish]

Politically, it should be a no-brainer (and more so in marginal seats such as Pendle). The biggest problem with this scheme is what to link in terms of passenger journeys especially along the Burnley - Skipton section. Leeds (or possibly Bradford) to the east is obvious, but it is less clear to the west. Westward the journey needs to connect somewhere, and not end somewhere that nobody wants to go to such as Blackburn.

Hang on old chap. Blackburn's a fine town with a grand, old famous (and successful) football club. I take it you're from that other place 10 miles east?

Talking about Bacup, I travelled on the Bacup-Manchester line through Ramsbottom as a child and know it quite well. The town's economy would certainly have been better over the years if it still had the Manchester rail link. On another note, Ramsbottom has changed enormously for the better in the past 20-30 years - helped by the stream railway - and it feels so much more vibrant with more young (and well paid) families moving in many of whom work in Manchester.

Have the regional transport authorities looked at connecting Ramsbottom and Rawtenstall back to the national network via Bury and Heywood? It must have a reasonable case

 

[yoyothehobo]

Going back to the point of colne skipton, it is a fairly useless scheme in terms of travelling from colne to skipton. The point is, such a scheme would give a lift to the depressed areas of Pendle and increase the life chances of people there by being able to commute without cars (in terms of connectivity, Im sure most people in hebden bridge dont actually work there). It also has the potential to send freight over the pennines without getting delayed in manchester and would free up capacity there, could provide better car free opportunities for urban people to access the yorkshire dales, and may increase travel opportunities for everybody along that entire corridor, conceivably from preston / west lancs through to skipton.

The interest from Drax illustrates a more regional role for such a short stretch of track. In this respect the proposal has more going for it than say the welsh valley lines that were reopened and catered for local issues only. The question is, what value do you place on the "fringe benefits" Whilst this does fall outside my expertise, it is interesting to note that the french managed to justify building a lot of rail infrastructure by basing payback periods over 50 plus years. In the UK we typically looked at 25 years. Therefore our marginal schemes always looked less affordable.

My bold. This hits the nail on the head. Why would this give a lift to the depressed areas of Pendle? If you cant afford to catch the current bus and train, you cant afford to get a train all the way.

The freight is a total red herring. It isnt going to go that way as you have to send it via the WCML north of Wigan which is not exactly full of free paths and then you have to somehow path it down the Aire Valley and across the entire throat at Leeds and its not going through Leeds as pathing that way is already horrific.

You would have a far greater cost benefit ratio by giving the good people of Pendle (approx 100,000 people) 300 million to share between them at £3000 for every man woman and child there.

 

[Neptune]

My bold. This hits the nail on the head. Why would this give a lift to the depressed areas of Pendle? If you cant afford to catch the current bus and train, you cant afford to get a train all the way.

The freight is a total red herring. It isnt going to go that way as you have to send it via the WCML north of Wigan which is not exactly full of free paths and then you have to somehow path it down the Aire Valley and across the entire throat at Leeds and its not going through Leeds as pathing that way is already horrific.

You would have a far greater cost benefit ratio by giving the good people of Pendle (approx 100,000 people) 300 million to share between them at £3000 for every man woman and child there.

Lest we forget that the freight element was added by SELRAP just to muddy the waters and make it look more attractive to would be funders without seriously expecting it to happen (or maybe they do in their fantasy world).

 

[tbtc]

. When talking about the population west of the Pennines, it’s important not to forget that there’s an hourly service from Blackburn/ Accrington/ Burley to Halifax/ Bradford/ Leeds (Obviously SELRAP would want you to be unaware of this though)

. Some places are doing well/ struggling regardless of whether they had/lost Rail links. Holmfirth seems more vibrant than Nelson, despite only the latter having a train service.

Lest we forget that the freight element was added by SELRAP just to muddy the waters and make it look more attractive to would be funders without seriously expecting it to happen (or maybe they do in their fantasy world).

I think that their website mentioned an hourly freight path, as well as three passenger paths an hour, last time I read it.., someone there has a cracking sense of humour… next they’ll be claiming “diversionary resilience”!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Some places are doing well/ struggling regardless of whether they had/lost Rail links. Holmfirth seems more vibrant than Nelson, despite only the latter having a train service.

I've mentioned before that if it were still open the Holmfirth branch would do pretty well today, and if the trackbed was still intact it would have a decent case for reopening (moreso than Skipton to Colne at least). I've never been to Nelson but it strikes me as a bit of a Royston Vasey-type place... though so is Holmfirth outside of the summer holidays.

 

[Ken H]

I've mentioned before that if it were still open the Holmfirth branch would do pretty well today, and if the trackbed was still intact it would have a decent case for reopening (moreso than Skipton to Colne at least). I've never been to Nelson but it strikes me as a bit of a Royston Vasey-type place... though so is Holmfirth outside of the summer holidays.

They havent filmed a long running TV show in Nelson....

 

[Neptune]

When talking about the population west of the Pennines, it’s important not to forget that there’s an hourly service from Blackburn/ Accrington/ Burley to Halifax/ Bradford/ Leeds (Obviously SELRAP would want you to be unaware of this though)

I’ll never bore of them claiming that there is no service between East Lancs and West Yorks. It just cements my thoughts that they really are an unprofessional bunch of chancers trying to rewind the clock.

Some places are doing well/ struggling regardless of whether they had/lost Rail links. Holmfirth seems more vibrant than Nelson, despite only the latter having a train service.

Brave claim on here regardless of the painful truth. Some people cannot accept that the lack of a railway station or the presence of a buffer stop does not mean depravity.

I think that their website mentioned an hourly freight path, as well as three passenger paths an hour, last time I read it.., someone there has a cracking sense of humour… next they’ll be claiming “diversionary resilience”!

A blatant attempt to try and acquire funding.

 

[zwk500]

Lest we forget that the freight element was added by SELRAP just to muddy the waters and make it look more attractive to would be funders without seriously expecting it to happen (or maybe they do in their fantasy world).

The freight element just has the same ring of Matlock-Buxton of trying to grasp every single straw in the desperate hope of cobbling together a case.

 

[snowball]

Some places are doing well/ struggling regardless of whether they had/lost Rail links. Holmfirth seems more vibrant than Nelson, despite only the latter having a train service.

Perhaps if Last of the Summer Wine had been filmed in Nelson...

 

[Bald Rick]

The freight element just has the same ring of Matlock-Buxton of trying to grasp every single straw in the desperate hope of cobbling together a case.

AIUI it came about because DfT told the campaign that there was no case in passenger terms. The campaign then said ‘what about when you add freight’, to which DfT said, effectively - well, good luck.

 

[zwk500]

AIUI it came about because DfT told the campaign that there was no case in passenger terms. The campaign then said ‘what about when you add freight’, to which DfT said, effectively - well, good luck.

 

[daodao]

I am expecting an announcement before noon today that the DfT have now found some funding for this scheme to progress.

 

[Ken H]

On problem is if they use the old route it will not serve Barnoldswick. Its the only sizeable place between Skipton and Colne. Barnoldswick was on a dead end branch.

 

[zwk500]

I am expecting an announcement before noon today that the DfT have now found some funding for this scheme to progress.

We had that one a bit early with the TfSE announcement about Lewes-Uckfield last week.

 

[Flying Claret]

You could run direct Colne - Manchester trains now without any new track at all if you ran them via Blackburn.

About 20 years ago there was a one a day return service that did this from Colne to Manc. Not sure how long it lasted.
Would be worth another try now. Or just reverse at Rose Grove?

 

[30907]

Via Blackburn was/is uncompetitive with bus. Via Copy Pit is still slow and the Colne branch (sorry, major Transpennine artery) has basically one path per hour so it would complicate the timetable.