Colour coding - front ends and doors...

[RichW1]

Hi all,

I am wondering why all our trains have to have yellow warning panels on the front these days? I am not aware of an excessive train incident risk to staff or otherwise because of these panels not being in use in Europe or Asia in the main...unless anyone has any evidence to the contrary?

Secondly, why are passenger doors colour marked ruining the streamlining of all our trains? I am not aware of sight impaired people all over Europe, Asia or anywhere else being up in arms because their trains don't have colour coded doors in many instances. Everyone else around the world seems to cope just fine without it. Like the yellow front ends on trains, why are we so different? (and I don't mean that in a good way). There always seems to be someone who has come up with nonsense to justify a non position in some civil service department somewhere!

 

[edwin_m]

I believe yellow ends were a staff suggestion in the early 60s when diesels and electrics were becoming common, and were much quieter and often faster than steam locos. At the time their ends were dark green and they had feeble lighting that was invisible during the day and not much better at night. A few of the 150/2s ran for a short period without yellow ends when new (I think - certainly I have a photo of one in a bay at York) on the grounds that the high intensity headlight made them equally visible, but the current standard is for both the headlight and the yellow ends.

The principle of reducing risks "as low as reasonably practicable" within UK Health and Safety legislation means that this will almost certainly be impossible to remove this rule on the UK classic network. ALARP basically says that it is not essential to eliminate a risk but it is necessary to spend a "reasonable" amount to reduce it, unless it is already negligible. With track worker deaths continuing (though far fewer than in the 60s) the risk is not negligible, and since yellow paint doesn't cost any more than any other colour the cost of continuing to provide yellow ends is essentially zero. Hence it will continue unless someone can convince the authorities that it actually makes trackside safety worse.

Incidentally none of this will apply on HS1 and HS2 where Euro-rules apply and adding any unnecessary national restrictions could be seen as constraining the single market. Since high speed lines do not have staff on the track when trains are running, yellow ends are not necessary for trains that use only high speed lines (though ironically enough Eurostar is one of the few operators who manage to integrate them nicely into their livery!).

Colour contrasting doors are a requirement of the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations, became mandatory for all stock new after about 1997 and all franchised operators have applied it to their older stock too. There is a possible conflict with Euro-regulations here too, which ought to be defined in the "Persons with Restricted Mobility Technical Specification for Interoperability" but all I can find there is a reference to other standards that aren't freely available. Incidentally they don't make any difference to the streamlining - I think you are just suggesting they compromise the streamlined appearance!

 

[Muzer]

I actually don't like it when they try to streamline the livery of a train over the door, it doesn't look right because of the seam. I actually quite like the contrasting doors when they're done well (eg SWT's livery).

 

[455driver]

The yellow panel is a throw back to the time before headlights and nobody has got the bottle to rescind the legislation just in case they get sued later on, although I have noticed the size of the yellow panel is shrinking a bit on some trains.

The reason for the different coloured doors is (ostensibly) so partially sighted passengers can see the doors better, what happens on sliding door stock when the doors slide into the pockets (and so disappear from sight), or the on swing plug doors they open and so dont actually show where the opening is making them useless seems to be lost on the people who make the decisions.
I wonder how many groups (dealing with visual "issues") were consulted before these decisions were forced on the railways?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A few of the 150/2s ran for a short period without them when new (I think - certainly I have a photo of one in a bay at York) on the grounds that the high intensity headlight made them equally visible, but the current standard is for both the headlight and the yellow ends.

Wasnt the yellow panel resticted to the gangway doors on those, I am sure there was some yellow on them?

 

[RichW1]

Thanks ever so much for the info; had wondered how such strange and 'unique' rules were brought in. How very post war British of us to keep such regulations. By the way Edwin_m, I was indeed referring to the aesthetic of the train! Apologies for the wording there. I think the Silver Jubilee streamlined look and A4's as well almost had a much more impressive look than any train on the UK network today. I think the same about the APT-? diesel. When you see the design and watch it fly through the countryside it looks amazing, like a silver streak. If only those who commission our classic line Intercity's today had the same attention to design and livery. I think the coloured doors lose the streamlining look which means the look I stated can never happen, nor incidentally can our old Intercity livery as that wouldn't be allowed today!! I much prefer the livery to go over the doors in most, but not all cases. With Pendolino's the different coloured doors are a disaster. I have seen a few initially in the new batch that had a darker grey door against the silver which looked fantastic but again, a uniform colour would make the pendolino.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Contrasting colours for doors (and you will notice handrails and handles within the train too) have a tangible benefit for a section of the travelling public though and having a "cool" or streamlined livery is purely subjective, what one man likes another may hate. Personally I approve of the door thing.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the door colour thing is so that passengers with visual impairments can see where the doors are as the train arrives. Obviously as 455driver says, once the doors are opened the colour is irrelevant- though the colour of the interior is unlikely to match the bodysides. The challenge for the folks who design the liveries is to work with the regulations to come up with something eyecatching that still meets the standards. All three SWT liveries do this splendidly, the long-distance white especially (looked better on the 442s than 444s though:roll. I see what Virgin were trying to do with the weird hatched markings, but it looks hideous. Likewise I seem to remember GNER's MD getting rather annoyed that he had to paint his doors orange!

 

[RichW1]

Well Cherry Picker I genuinely don't see what benefit they have to a 'section of the public'? Like I say Europe doesn't have it and I doubt they are persecuting anyone. We are the only ones almost. I would also mention the comment above that said when the doors open, you can't see these colour contrasts anyway in many cases!! I think these contrasting doors help no-one and keep someone in a job...a bit like road signs. No ambition in design and look in trains anymore....such a shame when you look back at the engineering led railway that did. I'm don't look back at that time with rose tint specs or anything as most of the period was rubbish but god they got the design of those trains and the aesthetic right. It showed ambition and it was also a period when PR on trains mattered.

 

[142094]

Well Cherry Picker I genuinely don't see what benefit they have to a 'section of the public'? Like I say Europe doesn't have it and I doubt they are persecuting anyone. We are the only ones almost. I would also mention the comment above that said when the doors open, you can't see these colour contrasts anyway in many cases!!

You obviously must have good vision then?

 

[Yew]

I dont see the problem with colour coded doors.. Personally I think EMT's Mk3's look as good as IC swallow anyway!

 

[Crossover]

Thing is, with the contrasting doors and the rest, is say there is more to it in the UK

If you go to the likes of Germany, most stock, even new stuff, have loads of steps and platforms that are so low you feel like you're in the cess (and have to use a ladder basically to get on sone of the older slammers)...I think the UK are pretty ahead of the game with some of the things we do

 

[RichW1]

Well looks like we're stuck with this colour coding then and the only ones to be so. Considering most bureaucratic nonsense comes from European politics I'm surprised this is something we have here. If Europeans don't have it then I'm stumped as to why we feel it's absolutely necessary here. Surely if a section of society felt hard done by with this they could have taken the EU to the court of human rights by now! In fact if it was so important I would have thought 'they' would have.
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But Crossover I take your point sincerely. As with everything in Europe, we are usually the ones that get it right for the most part and it falls on deaf ears!

 

[causton]

I honestly don't see what's too bad with it all.

EU politics or not, the yellow fronts can look smart, distinctive and the doors look much better in contrasting colours IMO!

 

[142094]

Well looks like we're stuck with this colour coding then and the only ones to be so. Considering most bureaucratic nonsense comes from European politics I'm surprised this is something we have here. If Europeans don't have it then I'm stumped as to why we feel it's absolutely necessary here. Surely if a section of society felt hard done by with this they could have taken the EU to the court of human rights by now! In fact if it was so important I would have thought 'they' would have.

I think you need to actually go and do some research into who 'they' are and why 'they' might require the doors to be colour coded. Start by looking at RVAR and PRM TSI standards which have been already mentioned.

 

[RichW1]

Yes I hear your point 142094 but I don't see why such standards have not been applied in Europe in a mass way if it is so vital to the welfare of a minority. Europe is usually first to jump up and down about things like this (whilst not doing it themselves) and always loves to bring this sort of thing to all of us without question. My only point now is...we're on our own in this at this moment. If we have to have it, then we should but my point is where is everyone else in this?

 

[142094]

Yes I hear your point 142094 but I don't see why such standards have not been applied in Europe in a mass way if it is so vital to the welfare of a minority. Europe is usually first to jump up and down about things like this (whilst not doing it themselves) and always loves to bring this sort of thing to all of us without question. My only point now is...we're on our own in this at this moment. If we have to have it, then we should but my point is where is everyone else in this?

I see your point (and half the time it seems as if we jump through hoops in this country for the EU when they don't reciprocate), but if it helps a small section of the community access transport easier, or even encourages greater use, then I'm all for it. Even better is the fact that having contrasting colours on doors doesn't cost a great deal of money to implement.

 

[O L Leigh]

I actually wondered for a time about the yellow ends but, since getting a seat right at the very front, I have seen the benefit.

Believe it or not, in extremely bright sunlight the headlight is not always visible on trains at a distance. Only newer stock or trains refitted with the latest standard of headlight seem to show brightly enough. All other train headlights seem to be overwhelmed by environmental conditions. When conditions are like this the yellow fronts do indeed stand out very well indeed.

As for what passes in other countries I cannot say. Do they have a particular problem with people getting bowled over? Other colours may stand out well, such as white. Maybe they have different rules overseas with regards to track access for rail workers, etc. Certainly in the US and Canada the stock is festooned with lights and there is an awful lot of horn blowing going on. DBS "Sheds" in use on the continent seem to have additional yellow and black chevrons painted onto front skirts over and above the yellow panels required by the UK railways, so maybe our requirements aren't quite so over-the-top as folk are suggesting.

As for contrasting door colours, I don't even notice it so much these days. Some are garish but it need not be so. East Coast just have a contrasting grey which meets standards without being too unsightly.

O L Leigh

 

[thetangoman]

As for contrasting door colours, I don't even notice it so much these days. Some are garish but it need not be so. East Coast just have a contrasting grey which meets standards without being too unsightly.

O L Leigh

The new Scotrail Saltire Livery looks very smart with its Royal Blue & contrasting Silver doors.

 

[#1 driver]

cross country voyagers come onto our depot to get serviced at night time .
one day a load of firefighters came to the depot to look around the voyagers , for training purposes .
their boss was saying they had a hand in getting the doors painted different colours so they could find them easier in the event of a crash/fire .

 

[MCR247]

Yes I hear your point 142094 but I don't see why such standards have not been applied in Europe in a mass way if it is so vital to the welfare of a minority. Europe is usually first to jump up and down about things like this (whilst not doing it themselves) and always loves to bring this sort of thing to all of us without question. My only point now is...we're on our own in this at this moment. If we have to have it, then we should but my point is where is everyone else in this?

I'm not trying to be funny but why is it such a big deal to you? If contrasting doors help you - great, if they don't - are you physically hurt by the fact they are there anyway?!

 

[Boothby97]

Is it not part of PRM TSI (which has rules about disability to access to trains beyond 2020) to include doors that carry a different colour than the rest of the bodyside?
Thanks, Sam

 

[Goldfish62]

The reason for the different coloured doors is (ostensibly) so partially sighted passengers can see the doors better, what happens on sliding door stock when the doors slide into the pockets (and so disappear from sight), or the on swing plug doors they open and so dont actually show where the opening is making them useless seems to be lost on the people who make the decisions.

The colour contrast is not needed when doors are open because the big holes in the side of the train indicates where to get on!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it not part of PRM TSI (which has rules about disability to access to trains beyond 2020) to include doors that carry a different colour than the rest of the bodyside?
Thanks, Sam

I believe it is.

Also, in answer to those who think that none of this is present in Europe, SNCB domestic stock has yellow ends and colour-contrasting doors.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Swiss trains all have a simulated steam whistle rather than an air horn.
Must be because of their safety legislation.
And why doesn't London Underground stock have yellow ends?
Manchester Metrolink didn't used to have yellow ends but the new stock is mostly yellow anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also, in answer to those who think that none of this is present in Europe, SNCB domestic stock has yellow ends and colour-contrasting doors.

Also, whether any particular stock in mainland Europe has contrasting doors will also depend on its age. Even here I don't think it is retrospectively required until a full repaint is done. Perhaps 'Europe' is behind the curve because they don't have such a prevalence of new fleets, such as Desiro and Electrostars which are a significant proportion of what is seen here...

As I've said before about 'full' yellow ends in UK, the rules only require a small panel - only 1 sq m normally - it is the livery designer who has optionally chosen to do the whole cab front. Likewise contrasting doors - they don't have to have the highly colourful Desiro 450 treatment, that is just a designer's option.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And why doesn't London Underground stock have yellow .

LU policy does not normally allow track workers line side with trains running, so they don't need the relevant precautions. All the LU inter working with NR lines depends on various derogations from group standards.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, in answer to those who think that none of this is present in Europe, SNCB domestic stock has yellow ends and colour-contrasting doors.

Indeed; Actually, colour contrasting doors are quite prevalent across Europe nowadays:

All DB Regio liveried stock; whether it be double deckers, single deck loco hauled or multiple units; has colour contrasting doors.

The Swiss double decker stock also features colour contrasting doors, while the current CBB livery on the single deck stock makes use of a more understated colour contrast that is kept more tightly arranged around the windows in a similar manner to the livery treatment on the SNCF TGVs, where it is also used to identify different classes.

The UK is not alone by any means in it's application of colour contrasting door liveries.

 

[driver9000]

Wasnt the yellow panel resticted to the gangway doors on those, I am sure there was some yellow on them?

Correct. When new the 150/2 had grey front panels apart from the gangway door which was the standard yellow. They didn't stay like this for long though.

 

[badassunicorn]

ermagerd someone call the Daily Mail at all this Health and Safety gone bonkers!

 

[455driver]

If the contrasting colours are to help the visually impaired (nothing wrong with that at all) why are all the passenger doors on all trains not painted the same colour, surely having the doors different colours is confusing?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the contrasting colours are to help the visually impaired (nothing wrong with that at all) why are all the passenger doors on all trains not painted the same colour, surely having the doors different colours is confusing?

That's a good question, but I'm guessing the important factor is the contrast between where there's a door and where there isn't- rather than all doors being the same. That would work if all trains were the same colour as they were (almost!) under BR in the 1970s, but that's another matter altogether!

As for the yellow ends, there are/were a few examples on the 'Ficticious Liveries' site of British trains without the yellow ends- and they look very strange indeed! Am I right in thinking that the current T&W Metro livery had to include a certain amount of yellow for the shared running with NR? I'm also always surprised that several of the 59/0s and /1s get away with so little yellow on the front end- they always seemed like an anomaly.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

If the contrasting colours are to help the visually impaired (nothing wrong with that at all) why are all the passenger doors on all trains not painted the same colour, surely having the doors different colours is confusing?

How so? Surely the object of the exercise is to have a door which is a contrasting colour to the body of the carriage? I can't see how it matters if that contrast is blue on white in Birmingham but pink on purple in Bristol.