The pre Covid headline time was 80min (0915 down, 1 stop) - the 95min +/- is half hourly all day which is far more frequent and significantly faster than the 1958 equivalents (when only 3 trains made it in 2h 15m or less, and with only 1-2 stops.
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Comparison of Journey times in 1955 and today
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I don't think there was any speed limit until the D800s turned up & scared everyone. The steam record for the Bristolian seems to be about 94 mins with over 100mph top speed at some point with ( according to Wiki anyway ) an idea that it'd be regularily under 100 mins. It didn't stop anywhere though.
Paddington-Exeter looks like 2h55m vs 2h10m fastest now ( more regular trains seem rather over 3h, but then regular trains now are in the 2h30+ range ). Paddington-Plymouth 4h flat for the CRE vs 3h9m now. Paddington-Penzance 6h25 for the CRE vs 5h01m for the 18:04 now ( usually 5h20-ish, regular trains in 1955 were more like 7h30! ). Plymouth-Penzance 2h25m vs 1h53m, neither of those are really spectacular
obviously given west of Taunton bar the sea wall section is hill dieselisation helped massively.notadriver
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Horsepower figures for modern DC powered 12 car sets misleading due to being heavily current capped. For example a 12 car CEP/CIG is stronger in multiple than an Electrostar. Expect to climb Sole Street bank (1 in 100) at 60 mph. a 12 car electrostar can manage only 70 mph. Only a 4 car electrostar can show off its paces and climb at line speed of 80 mph.
Very interesting. Adding in the ‘Javelin affect’
St pancras to Ashford 37 mins (60 mins)
Folkestone central in 55 minutes and Dover priory in 65 minutes.
St Pancras to Canterbury in 53 minutes and Ramsgate in 75 minutes.
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deltic
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This highlights other recent research which shows that average speeds on services to London are very high and have generally improved significantly, while those between cities elsewhere are generally very slow and by the looks of it have not changed much or declined over the last 50 years.
You are correct, the old GWR Sectional Appendix expression, extended into BR steam days, was "The speed may be as high as required". Given that the locomotives were not fitted with speedometers anyway, it was entirely down to the driver's judgement.
SolomonSouth
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Peculiar that I've found 465s don't suffer from restrictions in multiple - for instance, I've timed 2x 465/9 and they were just as fast as a single unit, unlike the 375/377/387 on DC.
leytongabriel
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I doubt there'd be much if any improvement in London - Lewes as train were slowed after privatisation.
hexagon789
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Going through some Sectional Appendices - pre-war there was no overall ceiling on the 4 most important mainlines. Immediately post-war a 75mph ceiling is in place, except 'certain trains so authorised may run at 80mph where shewn *'. After a few years this is then increased to 80/85. In 1955 the pre-war - 'speed may be as high as required is back' only to be removed in 1960 and a 90mph ceiling imposed.I don't think there was any speed limit until the D800s turned up & scared everyone. The steam record for the Bristolian seems to be about 94 mins with over 100mph top speed at some point with ( according to Wiki anyway ) an idea that it'd be regularily under 100 mins. It didn't stop anywhere though.
Paddington-Exeter looks like 2h55m vs 2h10m fastest now ( more regular trains seem rather over 3h, but then regular trains now are in the 2h30+ range ). Paddington-Plymouth 4h flat for the CRE vs 3h9m now. Paddington-Penzance 6h25 for the CRE vs 5h01m for the 18:04 now ( usually 5h20-ish, regular trains in 1955 were more like 7h30! ). Plymouth-Penzance 2h25m vs 1h53m, neither of those are really spectacular
The first 100mph running was authorised on two sections in 1966 with double 37s being used.
This arrangement lasted until 1975 when the first 125mph section was authorised, initially for test runs and then of course extended to cover much of the GWML for the IC125 introduction.
As for Eastbourne - see my post #27. 64min in 1958, 62 min with +4 stops now. ISTR it was 59min with +2 stops in the 80s.
Bevan Price
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Many services had several minutes "charter time" added when they started compensation schemes for late running.
DerekC
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The thread prompted me to try a (nearly) real journey. It was one that my Dad and I were unable to do in Spring 1963. Dad was a scout leader planning a summer camp in Llangorse, near Brecon and he took me on a day trip to see the site. We went from home in Hertfordshire via Euston, Paddington and Newport to Pontypool Road, where the farmer who owned the site picked us up, returning us in the afternoon. What Dad had wanted to do was go via the Brecon & Merthyr to Talyllyn Junction. Sadly it had closed at the end of 1962. I thought I would try it on Timetable World. I used the 1955 timetable.
There was a good train at 08:50 from Paddington, arrival at Newport at 11:16. (2h 26 min non-stop). However the mid-morning train to Brecon left at 11:15. Unbelievable!
OK - so try again. The only earlier train left Paddington at 05:30. Not doable, but it called at Reading at 06:18 which we could have driven to, I guess - so let's catch that one, which goes via Temple Meads and arrives Newport at 09:57. No chance of an earlier train to Brecon - the previous service left at 08:03 - so we wait for the 11:15. That gets us to Talyllyn Junction at 13:29 - 2h 14min for about 40 miles! Time to think about the return. Well, not much choice because the service (after ours went back at 14:00) is at 18:28, getting back to Newport at 20:50. Now surely there is a good train back to Paddington? Nope. The last through service of the day left at 19:20. We could catch the overnight 21:55 via Gloucester which would get us back to Reading at 03:30 the next day, but I have a feeling a stay in a pub in the local village would be much preferable.
I am left amazed at:
a) The slow and infrequent service on the B&M - how did it last to 1962?
b) The infrequent service on the Paddington to South Wales main line, compared with modern standards.
c) The unbelievable missed morning connection - I checked it three times and it's right.
I hadn't realised the service when I was a child was this bad. I conclude that comparing times for the crack service of the day in 1955 versus today's timings doesn't really tell you anything useful!
There was a good train at 08:50 from Paddington, arrival at Newport at 11:16. (2h 26 min non-stop). However the mid-morning train to Brecon left at 11:15. Unbelievable!
OK - so try again. The only earlier train left Paddington at 05:30. Not doable, but it called at Reading at 06:18 which we could have driven to, I guess - so let's catch that one, which goes via Temple Meads and arrives Newport at 09:57. No chance of an earlier train to Brecon - the previous service left at 08:03 - so we wait for the 11:15. That gets us to Talyllyn Junction at 13:29 - 2h 14min for about 40 miles! Time to think about the return. Well, not much choice because the service (after ours went back at 14:00) is at 18:28, getting back to Newport at 20:50. Now surely there is a good train back to Paddington? Nope. The last through service of the day left at 19:20. We could catch the overnight 21:55 via Gloucester which would get us back to Reading at 03:30 the next day, but I have a feeling a stay in a pub in the local village would be much preferable.
I am left amazed at:
a) The slow and infrequent service on the B&M - how did it last to 1962?
b) The infrequent service on the Paddington to South Wales main line, compared with modern standards.
c) The unbelievable missed morning connection - I checked it three times and it's right.
I hadn't realised the service when I was a child was this bad. I conclude that comparing times for the crack service of the day in 1955 versus today's timings doesn't really tell you anything useful!
WesternLancer
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V interesting to read that example - informative too. Thanks for posting it up after having worked it through.
Dividing would also slow things down (by a couple of minutes) presumably, as for a long time the Eastbourne and Littlehampton/Portsmouth services were not combined at Haywards Heath, but ran on the opposite sides of each hour.
Regarding Wivelsfield, Plumpton, Cooksbridge I do seem to recall these were served by peak additionals from London Bridge in the 1980s but not the basic hourly service even in the peak. They've stopped at Clapham and Gatwick for a long time, certainly since mid 80s.
WesternLancer
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Not checked the timetable but back in 1955 wasn't there the Horsted Keynes - Seaford regular EMU service which may have served the smaller stations?
EMUs on the Brighton Line - Lewes - Eastbourne seem to have been dividing somewhere or other (but probably not all of them) for a long long time. I wonder if it dates back to the 1930s electrification, it may well do.
I do note that the through service to Hastings and Ore has been running a long time (it divided at Eastbourne in the 80s, but did not north of there).
It's interesting the through Victoria-Hastings/Ore managed to survive for so long, and was not cut back to Victoria-Eastbourne at some point during the earlier years nationalisation. Someone wishing to cut costs could argue that it duplicates the Charing Cross-Hastings for London traffic, and most traffic westbound between Hastings and Eastbourne (but not Eastbourne itself) would, before the growth of Gatwick, probably be headed to Brighton - so they could have replaced the Hastings-Eastbourne section with an additional Brighton service, i.e. an Eastbourne to Brighton services starting back from Hastings in lieu of the London service.
Not saying it'd be a good thing now, as the Gatwick link would be lost - but knowing the railway's tendency to rationalise, I'm somewhat surprised they didn't try that sometime in the earlier years of BR, before Gatwick became more significant.
WesternLancer
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That's an interesting point. Were there EMU carriage sidings in Eastbourne before the early 1980s? I can't recall. Ore had EMU sidings back in the day IIRC. Was that reason for the London trains running though to Ore (or at least a portion of them). I assume prior to it's closure there was a split at Polegate with some of the train going direct to Hastings on the Eastbourne avoiding cut off. That's been mentioned on this forum before a while ago but i can't recall what the service pattern was, or when that cut off ceased to be used by regular passenger trains.
Yes; it was rationalised post Beeching and for a long timevPlumpton and Cooksbridge had virtually no offpeak service.
There were random splitting workings, but mainly at Eastbourne and Worthing Central.
Some stock berthed there, certainly.
Yes, there was no room for an EMU shed at Hastings.
Hardly anything used the direct line (unlike under steam) In 1955 and 1958 I can find only 1 Up relief EMU and a number of inter-regional workings, all Summer SO. Not sure when it finally closed.
Well, given the rather lazy service on the B&M it's quite possible they'd have waited for the Paddington train anyway. Does illustrate - admittedly in a rather extreme fashion - how much improvement a little effort could have made to some of these places rather than just axing them ( although I doubt the B&M would have ended up much more useful! ). I wonder how many people were employed along the B&M in 1955?
To be fair, on summer Saturdays (and by 1958 daily) there was a 7.55am which would have made the connection. But it reflects an age where a long-distance journey like that would have meant leaving after breakfast and getting there by teatime. Day Return to Brecon? Not a chance (let alone a Cheap Day Return)!
WesternLancer
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Thanks for all those responses.
It's astonishing really just how much the country has shrunk time-wise even since 1960. Looking at the timetables from that era, there appear to be no more than 5 or 6 departures from Paddington every hour in total. Departures to South Wales are much more in favour of the afternoon, presumably the assumption being people came down the previous day and stayed overnight, or used a sleeper?
Re getting to Brecon, looking at the pre war timetable there were more services, including one which got to Newport at 11. Services cut later and the connections never retimed perhaps?
It does seem to be the case that in the 'Beeching' era, the concept of connections wasn't seen as particularly important. Often stopping trains seemed to be timed apparently randomly and didn't always connect into fasts.
If you look at the 1965 timetable on Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter for example, some slows connected, and some didn't. There are two-hourly express services, with the timetable not being that drastically different to that prevailing in the 80s.
However at that time, the line had many more small local stations than today, which were served by all-stations stoppers from Salisbury to Exeter, presumably WR DMUs.
The fasts left Salisbury at 1044 (0900 ex Waterloo), 1304 (this was ex Brighton, the 1100 ex Waterloo terminating at Salisbury presumably around 1244), 1444, 1644, 1854 and 2044. These generally called at most of the stations still open today, though tended to skip Tisbury and Crewkerne, and run fast from Sidmouth Junction (now Feniton) to Exeter.
The slows out of Salisbury towards Exeter were at: 0810, 1050, 1310, 1455, 1725, 1810 and 1955. It can be seen that while the first three provided good connections, the last three did not. The first at 0810 was too early for a Waterloo train anyhow.
I don't have any other concrete examples but have noticed this tendency when looking at old timetables from this era on timetableworld; local trains did not always make good connections with the fasts.
I don't know why the 1725 didn't connect well (its SR predecessor was earlier), but the 1810 was a long-standing departure and the 1955 was a connection from the 1800SX Waterloo. Also the 1700 from Waterloo had always served most of the local stations.
The lack of a connection from the 1900 down is noticeable, though - I suspect because very few passengers had used it in former times.
Bevan Price
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The WR was an odd place. In 1963/64, there were not even Cheap Day Returns from Paddington to Reading - just ordinary singles & returns, with special offers , with time conditions, on Sundays. .
There is a Bakerloo/Watford 'new' line timetable on TTW
mike57
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Quite by chance I came across a copy of the 1926 July timetable for my 'home' line, Hull - Bridlington - Scarborough. Well before the time I was originally looking at but still of interest. Considerably less trains than today, particularly at the smaller stations, BUT the fastest Scarborough - Hull service was the 8.25am out of Scarborough, 1h 14m, and the return working at 5:08pm taking 1h 21m, with calls at Filey and Bridlington. Today the fastest is 1h 14m, 05:33 from Hull and there several 1h 19/20m trains in both directions with 6 extra stops. The 1926 times are 21m from Bridlington to Filey, comparable with the 19 - 23m of today with 2 stops, but I wonder what sort of make up the train would have, quite challenging times I would have thought given the long 1 in 100 climb up through Bempton.
Snow1964
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Some suburban journeys are slower
eg Kingston-Waterloo was 27mins, now 30 mins (+11%)
Waterloo-Shepperton was 49mins, now 53mins, (+8%)
Chessington South-Waterloo was 31 mins, now 36mins (+16%)
based on stopping train approx 10-11am weekdays
When the Chessington line first opened in 1939 had a 20 minute interval service, so even if just missed a train would do it in 51 min, now if just miss one, takes 66min (+29%)
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Class800
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Woolwich Arsenal to London Bridge with same stops seems 5 mins slower than when I was young in the 1990s - not sure how it compares with e.g. the 50s
Snow1964
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The biggest peak hour increase I have found is Richmond-Waterloo, eg 07:56 ex Weybridge, arrived 08:12 (16 mins), now 07:46 takes 22mins, (+38% journey time increase)
This was because half hourly rush hour trains used to do all stations Weybridge-Richmond (except St Margarets), then non stop to Waterloo
Can anyone find a morning rush hour journey where direct trains still run that exceeds +38% extra time.
This was because half hourly rush hour trains used to do all stations Weybridge-Richmond (except St Margarets), then non stop to Waterloo
Can anyone find a morning rush hour journey where direct trains still run that exceeds +38% extra time.
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Mind you I think the Readings are still Richmond-Clapham-Waterloo only, which is only one stop, which would only add presumably about 2 minutes. I guess congestion is the problem, though looking at some of those old BR-era timetables there still seemed to be a lot of peak services - BR seemed to be very clever at squeezing in a lot of peak services, more than today perhaps, without impacting journey times too much.
The Weybridge-Richmond then fast is I think long gone, I don't even remember that from the 80s.
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