Compensation for Rovers

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TEW

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Has anyone else ever tried to claim compensation for a Rover ticket only to be told by the TOC concerned that compensation is not available for holders of Rover tickets? I have looked through the NRCOC, and can find no reference to such a restriction.

I am, well I was until they decided they were no longer going to reply to me and were just going to direct me to Passenger Focus, engaged in a dispute with TransPennine Express over the matter. They repeatedly claim that compensation for rovers is not available. They have come up with a number of reasons for this including:-

-The NRCOC only applied to standard daily and weekly tickets, and therefore the entitlement within it to compensation doesn't apply to Rover tickets.
-When you buy a rover ticket you sign up to 'different terms and conditions'. I have asked TPE for a copy of these additional terms and conditions, but they have not been forthcoming.
-Rover tickets are heavily discounted products and therefore not entitled to compensation. Note that for this fare, where the walk-up fare is £19 single, the cheapest Advance single £4.60 and the Rover daily rate £3.87, according to TPE the Advance fare is not heavily discounted, whilst the Rover is.
-It is impossible to work out what trains you catch when using a rover ticket, and therefore impossible to provide compensation. Note that it is still possible to provide compensation for an Anytime Return fare which could be valid on thousands of trains, because it's obviously possible to ascertain which one of those a passenger did in fact use so that compensation can be paid out accurately.

The matter is now with Passenger Focus, as TPE suggested, so I look forward to their reply.
 
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yorkie

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Most Train Companies will provide compensation to holders of Rovers and Day Rangers.

It is true that the opinion of certain TOCs and ATOC is that they are not obliged to offer compensation to such ticket holders, however.

I agree that TPE's excuses are ludicrous and laughable, and as you say could apply to other ticket types.

Delay Repay schemes are more generous, and apply to "All ticket holders" and "no matter what caused the delay", and in those cases I believe they consider the value of a return trip to be the daily rate of a multi-day Rover (or Britrail) ticket.

Unfortunately TPE are not bound by Delay Repay, and can therefore try to get out of it.

Passenger Focus are unlikely to be of much use, in my experience.

So unless you can afford a solicitor, I am not sure you will get anything out of TPE.

I understand a while back, a passenger was in dispute with GNER, who claimed that a Rover did not count as a 'Season ticket' (for the purposes of what is now NRCoC Condition 19), the case went to court and the passenger won.

If you managed to convince TPE that you are considering taking the matter to court, and that you are aware that Train Companies have been defeated over the issue of whether or not a Rover counts as a Season, and that you are prepared to ensure that such a ruling prevails again, then the threat of losing might, just maybe, make them back down.
 

Goatboy

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I have claimed compensation on Rover tickets with XC - for a 2 hour 30 minute delay I received 33% of the value of my 3 in 7 Rover.

Irritating, given I use it for a single return journey which would have been refunded in full if it was on a through ticket, but thats the tradeoff you make I guess when you save a bit of money with a Rover.
 

TEW

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It certainly seems to be TPE's opinion, but they can't provide me with any more evidence than that, it does just seem to be their opinion. They haven't actually provided me with any good evidence that they don't have to compensate Rover ticket holders.
 

yorkie

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I have claimed compensation on Rover tickets with XC - for a 2 hour 30 minute delay I received 33% of the value of my 3 in 7 Rover.
XC do participate in Delay Repay, so this is precisely what I'd expect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It certainly seems to be TPE's opinion, but they can't provide me with any more evidence than that, it does just seem to be their opinion. They haven't actually provided me with any good evidence that they don't have to compensate Rover ticket holders.
Agreed - it's one of those 'grey areas'. I'd be very interested to see it go to court!
 

sheff1

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-When you buy a rover ticket you sign up to 'different terms and conditions'. I have asked TPE for a copy of these additional terms and conditions, but they have not been forthcoming.

How can anyone 'sign up' for T&Cs, if those T&Cs are not available to read ?
 

TEW

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No, and I did point that out to TPE, but I was interested to see what they would say anyway. It turned out that they just ignored my reply to them and directed me to Passenger Focus.
 

RJ

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Has anyone else ever tried to claim compensation for a Rover ticket only to be told by the TOC concerned that compensation is not available for holders of Rover tickets? I have looked through the NRCOC, and can find no reference to such a restriction.

I am, well I was until they decided they were no longer going to reply to me and were just going to direct me to Passenger Focus, engaged in a dispute with TransPennine Express over the matter. They repeatedly claim that compensation for rovers is not available. They have come up with a number of reasons for this including:-

-The NRCOC only applied to standard daily and weekly tickets, and therefore the entitlement within it to compensation doesn't apply to Rover tickets.
-When you buy a rover ticket you sign up to 'different terms and conditions'. I have asked TPE for a copy of these additional terms and conditions, but they have not been forthcoming.
-Rover tickets are heavily discounted products and therefore not entitled to compensation. Note that for this fare, where the walk-up fare is £19 single, the cheapest Advance single £4.60 and the Rover daily rate £3.87, according to TPE the Advance fare is not heavily discounted, whilst the Rover is.
-It is impossible to work out what trains you catch when using a rover ticket, and therefore impossible to provide compensation. Note that it is still possible to provide compensation for an Anytime Return fare which could be valid on thousands of trains, because it's obviously possible to ascertain which one of those a passenger did in fact use so that compensation can be paid out accurately.

The matter is now with Passenger Focus, as TPE suggested, so I look forward to their reply.

I've had pretty much the same from FGW. It's all done from the same office.
 

maniacmartin

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Agreed - it's one of those 'grey areas'.

I disagree. It is perfectly clear to me that Rovers qualify. The only grey area is how much compensation should be awarded.

The rear of the ticket will say it is issued subject to the NRCoC. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Also, whilst not TPE, sister comapny FGW's website clearly claims that the Rovers they sell are issued subject to the NRCoC, making you agree to it when purchasing:
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bnm

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I've had pretty much the same from FGW. It's all done from the same office.

Whereas on all occasions when I've had to claim compensation from FGW, for delays when using a Rover, I've received compensation. Usually at a pro-rata daily rate divided by 2.
 

Aldaniti

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Bear in mind that if too many people start claiming for a few quid, on already fairly good value rover tickets, that you shouldn't be surprised if TOCs start to either bump up prices significantly or withdraw them altogether. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone doing so, but it's worth bearing in mind. I've been heavily delayed when using rover tickets but I didn't even think about claiming compensation for this reason.
 

Tetchytyke

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Rover tickets are a regulated fare, so a TOC cannot withdraw them or refuse to accept them (with the exception of open access operators). This may be part of the reason why First are getting so grumpy about them.
 

Tetchytyke

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Just went away and checked again. Definitely remember it being in various Wolmar articles, but checked the SRA paper and they're not.

Oops. That'll teach me to work from memory!
 
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Aldaniti

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Its called 'playing the game'. I would imagine, although I have no evidence, that most rail rover tickets are bought by those who could loosely be described as rail enthusiasts. I would imagine that TOC's make little money from them but, they are popular amongst said enthusiasts. A few years ago some spotters, who were spending a night at Carlisle station, when it was closed to ordinary folk, complained about the toilet facilities. The staff had hitherto turned a blind eye to their presence and so the Station Manager at the time got her knickers in a twist and banned enthusiast overnight stays for some time. Again, it's called 'playing the game'. As I said earlier, I'm not pontificating, just making a general point.
 
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mikeg

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I recently received compensation for a delay between Thirsk and Middlesbrough on a North East 4 in 8 day rover ticket, with discount YNG applied. The delay was approximately 40 minutes. The response of the company (First TransPennine Express) was that compensation is not offered for rovers as they are discounted products*, but as a gesture of goodwill they would offer me a £7.27 rail travel voucher, which was included in the letter. The amount was exactly what I expected, one eighth of the ticket's value or half of that day's value.

I would say that the compensation should apply similar to that of weekly seasons. The problem is the guidelines for compensation, as with so many other things, do not take into account the existence of rover tickets!

*I smell nonsense here, as other discounted tickets such as advances are eligible for compensation, so clearly being a discounted ticket is not a critereon for there being no compensation.
 

Tetchytyke

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I don't understand what they mean by "discounted" ticket either. They offer compensation to holders of season tickets, which are "discounted" in exactly the same manner as rover tickets and have exactly the same issues around proving what train you were actually on.
 

TEW

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These were all things I've pointed out to FTPE, their justifications are bizarre and don't hold up to much logical analysis.
 

Goatboy

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Bear in mind that if too many people start claiming for a few quid, on already fairly good value rover tickets, that you shouldn't be surprised if TOCs start to either bump up prices significantly

This is already happening - the one I use the most is subject to significant pricehikes at what I'd imagine to be the maximum permissable level each year for the last few years.

A shame because once they've raised it a sufficient amount the alternative won't be the fullfare return tickets, it'll be my car :(
 

gnolife

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The one time I put in a claim for a ranger ticket, for a journey from Buxton to Shotton, changing at Manchester Piccadilly, I made a £2 profit from Northern, because they decided to refund me the full cost of the single that I would have been using, rather than looking at the price of the Cheshire Day Ranger.
 
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I guess with a rover ticket such as an Anglia Plus for example you can easily find a train within that area that is over half an hour late or 1 hour then make a claim which means the TOC will be forever giving refunds especially as a rover is never stamped

Down here FCC stamp a normal ticket and on the stamp is the date and the headcode of the train you are travelling on
 

Tibbs

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I guess with a rover ticket such as an Anglia Plus for example you can easily find a train within that area that is over half an hour late or 1 hour then make a claim which means the TOC will be forever giving refunds especially as a rover is never stamped

Down here FCC stamp a normal ticket and on the stamp is the date and the headcode of the train you are travelling on

Then that's a problem for the TOC to deal with, not the passenger. They need to issue proper stamps and enforce their use.

No way should a passenger be withheld their contractual rights because something is difficult to do.

/edit and you can argue exactly the same thing about season tickets, but there's no way I'm not claiming for late trains, and no way I'd accept that as an excuse for not compensating me.
 
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Deerfold

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Then that's a problem for the TOC to deal with, not the passenger. They need to issue proper stamps and enforce their use.

If I'm using a multi-day rover I wouldn't appreciate it being stamped on every service I use.



No way should a passenger be withheld their contractual rights because something is difficult to do.

/edit and you can argue exactly the same thing about season tickets, but there's no way I'm not claiming for late trains, and no way I'd accept that as an excuse for not compensating me.

I know people who commute on the same line as me so am often aware of problems that haven't affected me. I've never felt the need to claim for one of them yet.
 

Tetchytyke

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I think the point was more that a season ticket is not stamped, so the TOC has no way of verifying whether you were actually on board a delayed train.

On my season I'll claim for delayed trains that I travel on, and wouldn't accept "you have a discounted ticket" as a valid reason. I don't think anyone would claim on trains they didn't actually catch.
 

Harlesden

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Bear in mind that if too many people start claiming for a few quid, on already fairly good value rover tickets, that you shouldn't be surprised if TOCs start to either bump up prices significantly or withdraw them altogether. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone doing so, but it's worth bearing in mind. I've been heavily delayed when using rover tickets but I didn't even think about claiming compensation for this reason.

I totally agree with every point of the above and happy that someone shares my point of view.
 

jon0844

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Given how many people are prepared to fare dodge I'd wager there's a few out there.

Wasn't (isn't) there a website set up specifically to allow people with season tickets (and presumably day tickets too) to search for delayed trains and make retrospective claims?
 

Deerfold

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Wasn't (isn't) there a website set up specifically to allow people with season tickets (and presumably day tickets too) to search for delayed trains and make retrospective claims?

Rings a bell.

I'd be very suspicious of any claims which weren't retrospective though :lol:
 
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