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Complex Penalty Fare

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LexyBoy

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RJ, sounds like you've got an admirer there - can we expect an apprentice soon? :lol:
--
On the "avoiding lines" thing, with Didcot I agree that it's likely to be deliberate; furthermore trains are regularly diverted through the station when there's disruption or to allow another train to pass.

I've never been told "that combination isn't valid because we don't go through the station", it's always "that combination isn't valid because we don't call at Didcot".

The lines which avoid Gloucester and Selby are shown separately, so you do have to be more careful when splitting at either.

With Gloucester at least there are mapped routes from stations to the south via the avoiding line to Cheltenham and then back to Gloucester. There's also easement 700093 ('Customers may double back between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa'), although this may be different in the electronic version as it seems to be ignored by journey planners.
 
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Robsignals

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[...No idea of timescales as to when it will be confirmed that I was using valid tickets that day as multiple organisations and multiple departments within EMT are now involved in dealing with the case, with a few people on leave etc. From what I can see, it's not so much the 2 minutes it would take to check it in the National Routeing Guide. I didn't bother asking the question as to why they cannot find anyone in their organisation who is confident enough with their NRG understanding to be able to provide a conclusive answer as to the validity of the route. The problem has been said to have sparked confusion among several people...]

Glad your getting somewhere but it will probably all be forgotten again in a few months. They should create a new department, call it Roundabout Journeys, dealing exclusively with your paperwork - may need more staff than any other dept!

I may be invited in for a meeting with tea and biscuits at some point in the near future.

Uh-Oh, suggest you create a distraction and swap the cups round - can't be too careful...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
[...I've never been told "that combination isn't valid because we don't go through the station", it's always "that combination isn't valid because we don't call at Didcot"...]

It would be totally unreasonable to expect passengers, or non fGW staff, to know about layouts in that detail or at all.
 

bb21

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Glad your getting somewhere but it will probably all be forgotten again in a few months. They should create a new department, call it Roundabout Journeys, dealing exclusively with your paperwork - may need more staff than any other dept!

... or it would be significantly cheaper to just print out a few thousand mug shots of RJ, stick them at the end of the carriages, and instruct TMs to accept whatever ticket he is using. :D
 

Robsignals

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... or it would be significantly cheaper to just print out a few thousand mug shots of RJ, stick them at the end of the carriages, and instruct TMs to accept whatever ticket he is using. :D

Starting a whole new line in obtaining cheap tickets on ebay, RJ disguise packs and ticket suggestions...
 

Tomonthetrain

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Robsignals:1282735 said:
... or it would be significantly cheaper to just print out a few thousand mug shots of RJ, stick them at the end of the carriages, and instruct TMs to accept whatever ticket he is using. :D

Starting a whole new line in obtaining cheap tickets on ebay, RJ disguise packs and ticket suggestions...

I'll buy a few just for fun!
 

paulypaul

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I have to admire RJ for taking a stand in seeking out the best value for money rail fare for his particular journey. He is very lucky that he has the knowledge to back up his ticket combinations when challenged by TOC staff. I travel from the Leicester area I find some of the EMT fares are relatively costly to me. I would give my high teeth to have the knowledge and tenacity to do what RJ does.
 

All Line Rover

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I have to admire RJ for taking a stand in seeking out the best value for money rail fare for his particular journey. He is very lucky that he has the knowledge to back up his ticket combinations when challenged by TOC staff. I travel from the Leicester area I find some of the EMT fares are relatively costly to me. I would give my high teeth to have the knowledge and tenacity to do what RJ does.

The problem is trying to strike a balance between price, easy of use / minimal confrontation and sustainability.

Everyone likes to pay the lowest price, but few like to waste time having a 'discussion' with the guard during (even after) almost every journey they make, whilst also running the risk of being issued with a UPFN or Penalty Fare and have to waste even more time getting it overturned. In addition, many of the 'loopholes' RJ uses would be closed within weeks if they were brought to the attention of the general public.
 

RJ

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When I weigh up the 5 minutes it takes to knock up a letter of complaint, the periodic phonecalls and occasional additional letter I have to send, plus the time it takes to post them (I pass a post box daily anyway) against the amount of time I have on my hands and the thousands of pounds I have legitimately saved through use of creative ticketing over the last year, I'm quite willing to deal with the administrative BS it brings every now and again. It was a cost I factored in before I started doing it last year and found that the benefits outweighed it.

Also consider the irregular nature of my commute. I only need to do it once a week, maybe more if it's justified. Asides from when I travel early in the morning to meet deadlines, my commute is seldom of an urgent time critical nature. I usually have several hours of contingency at either end before doing whatever it is I travelled to do. The time of the day, the day of the week and the amount of times I travel per week is not fixed, which is why I can vary the tickets I buy.

What I do is not necessarily suitable for the average commuter, especially as I make use of non period tickets. Somebody with a standard commute of 4/5 days a week would eventually find this to work out more expensive due to the non linear nature of the period factors.

Anyway, I travelled on the 05:45 on Monday and it was the same TM as referred to in the first post who called the RPO on me. We recognised each other and I jokingly said "I've made it simple for you today," showing my Advance ticket and railcard. He said "see, if you keep it simple then you won't have any problems." Whilst that is intrinsically true, ticket inspection staff should be able to comprehend more than just the most basic of tickets but I didn't say anything else about that. I did ask if he heard anything back about our last encounter and he said no, same goes for the UFN he issued me with back in May. I wonder if part of the problem is that they don't bother feeding back to staff who have done things wrong, even when complaints have been lodged. Back in May, the same guy tried to stop me boarding the train by holding the gate shut then standing in the doorway where I was trying to board. The company did accept that I had a valid ticket for travel but apparently failed to say anything to this TM about it!
 
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bb21

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I wonder if part of the problem is that they don't bother feeding back to staff who have done things wrong, even when complaints have been lodged. Back in May, the same guy tried to stop me boarding the train by holding the gate shut then standing in the doorway where I was trying to board. The company did accept that I had a valid ticket for travel but apparently failed to say anything to this TM about it!

I would not be that surprised if it were the case in all honesty.

The odds of incidents occurring along similar lines is extremely low and it might not be considered worth company resources training staff up for the one dispute that might occur every however many days (even less if you use Advance tickets sometimes).

In addition, what the TM did might not even be considered wrong by his bosses.
 

Robsignals

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I have to admire RJ for taking a stand in seeking out the best value for money rail fare for his particular journey. He is very lucky that he has the knowledge to back up his ticket combinations when challenged by TOC staff. I travel from the Leicester area I find some of the EMT fares are relatively costly to me. I would give my high teeth to have the knowledge and tenacity to do what RJ does.

A good deal of RJ's knowledge is from his original training as a 'ticket inspector' (sorry, not sure of exact title), a classic example of game keeper turned poacher? One might ask if he only chose that job so he could be paid to learn how to make future savings - but I'm sure that's not true!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...]What I do is not necessarily suitable for the average commuter, especially as I make use of non period tickets. Somebody with a standard commute of 4/5 days a week would eventually find this to work out more expensive due to the non linear nature of the period factors.[..

Doesn't that confirm that it simply isn't cost effective to train staff in such rare ticket combinations etc? If all the hassle discourages further such use, by anyone else at least, then EMT have effectively made the problem go away, maybe they aren't so daft after all.
 

Deerfold

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A good deal of RJ's knowledge is from his original training as a 'ticket inspector' (sorry, not sure of exact title), a classic example of game keeper turned poacher? One might ask if he only chose that job so he could be paid to learn how to make future savings - but I'm sure that's not true!

Isn't it traditionally actually poacher turned gamekeeper?
 

RJ

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A good deal of RJ's knowledge is from his original training as a 'ticket inspector' (sorry, not sure of exact title), a classic example of game keeper turned poacher? One might ask if he only chose that job so he could be paid to learn how to make future savings - but I'm sure that's not true!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doesn't that confirm that it simply isn't cost effective to train staff in such rare ticket combinations etc? If all the hassle discourages further such use, by anyone else at least, then EMT have effectively made the problem go away, maybe they aren't so daft after all.

Before 2010, all I knew about tickets was £2 Child Travelcard, then £5.00 YP Railcard and Advance tickets. Literally nothing else. In 2010 there was a incident at Liverpool Street whereby I was Penalty Fared. I did nothing wrong and had touched in successfully at Forest Gate 18 minutes earlier. I later got to the bottom of what the issue was, something to do with OSIs and time limits which I had little idea of at the time. I appealed to IRCAS, who rejected the appeal and National Express took the p*ss with their response. I figured the only way for me to have the Penalty Fare cancelled was to research all the rules, regulations and laws concerning tickets from scratch, in order to give my next appeal rather more leverage. I did appeal again and IRCAS decided to uphold it. At this point I still knew next to nothing about tickets themselves.

I wouldn't attribute the knowledge I currently make use of to my former role in the ticket office although it's understandable why the connection is made. I chose that job because I wanted to work on the railways and felt a ticket office would be an interesting place to start. Funnily enough I worked in a completely different role when I started travelling on EMT and I kept hearing the line "you're railway staff, you should know better than to split at places where the train doesn't stop!"

A few days after I got that letter, I started a new job in retail/revenue protection and I did have 5 weeks of training. However, that was all learning about ticket types, railcards, ticket office procedures and the ticket issuing software. I taught myself the basics of the National Routeing Guide during quiet periods at work. By the time Penalty Fare training came, I used what I had learned from dealing with NXEA to put right a few incorrect things being taught.

When it transpired I'd have long term dual commitments in London and the East Midlands, I decided I wanted to travel as cheaply as legitimately possible. I only really knew about Condition 19c so had my Annual Zone 1-2 Travelcard and was buying Priv SORs, splitting at Boundary Zone 2, Luton Airport and Market Harborough. This was causing problems with EMT's guards who were under the misimpression that the trains had to stop at those places. Sometimes I bought a 3-in-7 Rover, with Priv SORs splitting at Luton Airport. When the Travelcard expired, I bought a Priv season from West Hampstead Thameslink to South London. Initially I continued buying the same Priv SORs, but this was causing too many problems with the on board staff so I wrote a letter to EMT asking for the TMs to be briefed, or at least a response I could carry to say that my tickets were valid. Instead, I got a letter back telling me they would be having the NRCoC changed in the near future to preclude splitting at places where the train doesn't stop. A year on and an NRCoC edition later, this still hasn't happened.

Anyway, I decided to stop using multiple Priv SORs and sought to develop my understanding of the NRG. I looked at the railway geography then formed heuristic concepts which facilitated the backwards analysis of the NRG in order to find anomalous fares. From there, I settled on using the PSS + one Priv SOR which was half the price of a through SOR and better still, cheaper than the multiple SORs. Things went quiet for a few weeks, but then I changed jobs, trading my Priv in for a TfL pass. This was when it all kicked off. The SOR I was buying didn't work quite as well as an SVR, similar cheaper SVRs were available. As soon as I started using the South London - West Hampstead Thameslink 7DS' + one YP SVR, I was getting untold hassle with UFNs being issued in the first week or two of me making the switch.

My previous experience with NXEA had taught me all about not having a bar of it from the TOCs, as the little man, where it came to staff issuing notices in error and their colleagues in the back office supporting them regardless of what is correct. The only way they will take notice of you is if you are persistent and provide an unequivocal explanation of why you're right and they're wrong and stand your ground.

As time has gone on, I have spent a few minutes a week whilst on the train looking for the best value tickets. Plenty of scope for creativity using Conditions 13, 16 and 19. Also through reading restriction codes, which are a completely unheard of myth to the greater majority of retail/RP staff I have encountered. Sometimes the fare setters miss out words that change the validity of the ticket completely, or apply the restriction to the wrong portion of the ticket. If I do identify two routing points which represent an anomalous fare, I like to play around with the clusters and substitute with obscure station names. However, I've almost had my fingers burnt doing this when running on a shortest route anomaly. Sometimes I use tickets in such a way that is not reasonable to expect the average person to envisage but is still permissible, hence this game of cat and mouse with loopholes being closed behind me.

To be honest, I don't look for any of these things. They just happen upon me :p. At the moment, using YP fares, I pay less than the price of the through Priv SOR. Anyone who does want to play cat and mouse will have their work cut out, because I just move onto the next ticket once the validity is culled. In fact, I started buying a new ticket last week. Cheaper than the through Super Off Peak fare, nothing to do with Condition 19 or anything. Pleased to report that I've made a return trip and ticket has been appropriately marked without any issues!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maybe but it works both ways, RJ was 'keeping' passengers from paying what EMT consider to little but now he's one of those passengers.

I wonder just how many people do what I do to the extreme that I do it though? In my time, I only clocked onto one passenger who was trying to be funny with his Network Railcard and getting an excess from me (excesses are an area I've dabbled in but would rather leave alone myself) but other than that, it was pretty much all standard requests. Plenty of people out there brimming with tips on how to dodge the fare but what I do is 100% within the law!
 
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Robsignals

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Thanks for the explanation RJ, apologies for my mistakes. I suppose if enough people started using these 'hidden' validities they would soon be shut down, sometimes it pays to keep quiet! Good luck and happy ticketing.
 

RJ

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People are at liberty to do so if they wish, I make use of the resources that anybody can access if they so desire.

In the meantime!

Re: Penalty Fare - no written correspondence from EMT regarding it despite writing to them over 4 weeks (20 working days) ago. It's not so much the Penalty Fare itself, but the numerous significant dissatisfactory factors surrounding its issue which I had complained about. My request for CCTV to cover the actions of the RPO has gone unfulfilled. I sent the initial request the week after the incident, with final payment reaching them on the 21st November. I followed this up with a phonecall on the 29th November, when I was told that they received the payment but had not yet forwarded the request to the station in question. 7th December I received an email - they finally got around to actioning the request. Surprise surprise, the CCTV had been overwritten by that point. The Penalty Fare itself for the St Pancras to Bedford part of the journey was cancelled by ITAL and I was refunded in late November.

Re: Report to the prosecution department for use of an Rugby to Peartree Anytime Return on an MML service running between (and stopping at) Bedford and Derby. After 6 weeks, EMT have not confirmed whether or not this ticket was valid for me to use. A Customer Relations rep attempted to confirm that it was not valid, but I quite easily spotted the holes in what she was saying and refused to accept this. The RPO told me that I would be hearing from the prosecutions department within a couple of weeks. I called the prosecutions department a few weeks ago and they said that whether action would be taken depended on what ATOC had to say about the validity of the ticket. ATOC do know all about it now so I'm not sure what exactly the hold up is - it's a 2 minute job for anyone who knows how to use the NRG or NRE journey planner to check validity!

Re: UFN - the one I got for a brand new undiscounted ticket because the TM thought I had mistakenly got on the wrong train with my ticket combination. I wrote to EMT regarding this in October. It's now December and haven't heard a peep out of them regarding this matter. I sent an email following up the matter two weeks ago but haven't heard anything back. ITAL rejected my first appeal, then sent a further letter bringing the payment deadline forward and adding a £30 admin fee on top, but I wasn't having it from them. The last I heard was on the 8th November, I got a letter saying that they were launching further investigation and I need not send any payment or further appeals.

I don't trust these ITAL people, because their administration has proven to be somewhat lacklusture in the past. Once they continued to demand money from me after I had paid a UFN in full. The excuse they gave was that a duplicate record for the same UFN had been created and showed as unpaid. Either this was a load of rubbish, or the appeals assessor was not doing their job properly, because I sent them a bank statement, a receipt from their website showing the UFN was paid in full and a detailed explanation of why my tickets were valid, along with a very clear statement that I had paid in full and wanted a refund attached to my first letter of appeal. Unless the appeals assessor tampered with the paperwork I sent by discarding (parts of) it or otherwise, it's not possible that they didn't realise that I had already paid.

I also don't trust ITAL because their admin staff have passively encouraged the revenue protection staff to discriminate against me by telling them that I have a history of multiple UFNs issued by the same TOC, but fail to also tell them that every single one has been cancelled or marked to show that they should not have been issued. If they can't even get their affairs in order, a period of protracted silence from them concerns me because for all I know, they could have arranged to send the bailiffs around and I wouldn't even know anything about it.

If this is the best the railway industry can do with regards to revenue protection, I'd encourage more people to read up on the relevant rules and regulations and find ways to avoid being issued with PFNs and UFNs, because from my experiences, ITAL are very poor at administrating these matters and even worse at determining whether or not the passenger was liable to pay the notice, which sort of defeats the purpose of what they do. I wouldn't wish dealing with them upon anyone who is not liable to pay the notice. Having worked in revenue protection myself, I can say that there are quite a few staff who have grave misconception over how these people actually operate. When the "appeal it and you will get your money back" spiel is trotted out, I wonder if those staff would be happy for their friends/family would have to go through what I have when lodging legitimate appeals? Let alone inflicting it on other passengers!

I'm very disappointed by the aversion of these organisations to take the slightest bit of notice of what I say or reply in a timely fashion. If EMT say they will provide a response within 20 working days, then they should.
 
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Robsignals

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It's likely that appeals are usually clearly valid or invalid so they haven't developed the skills to deal with rare cases like yours. It's interesting how giving part of the truth can be as bad as an outright lie, do interesting things happen to you in other aspects of your life?
 

RJ

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It's likely that appeals are usually clearly valid or invalid so they haven't developed the skills to deal with rare cases like yours. It's interesting how giving part of the truth can be as bad as an outright lie, do interesting things happen to you in other aspects of your life?

No, not really. I live an otherwise quiet, peaceful life. Who do you suspect has only given part of the truth? I wholeheartedly agree with the principle - important facts should not be omitted. In the case of ITAL, they do tell the revenue protection staff that I do have a history and had several UFNs issued for a similar/the same journey, but failure to mention that every single one has been cancelled/ marked as "should not have been issued" marks the fine line between painting me as a serial fare evader/chancer or someone who shouldn't

ITAL's propensity to reject my appeals and EMT's tendency to tentatively tell me my tickets were invalid, forcing me to lodge a fallacious appeal to authority suggests that thus far, neither have grasped that I always stay two steps ahead of the game.
 
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LexyBoy

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Maybe they're just waiting for the day you slip up...

If I worked at EMT I'd be trying to set up what look like tasty looking loopholes but with a sting in the tail (and probably fail and give you even cheaper tickets) :)
 

PR1Berske

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More power to you RJ.

The more we fight against the establishment, the weaker they become.
 

RJ

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Had a phonecall today. They're doing the inevitable and dropping any outstanding action with respect to this journey. The lack of contact I have experienced was at the behest of one particular manager who took on the investigations.

ATOC ultimately confirmed to EMT that the tickets I was using in the situation described in the OP were both valid. However, the loophole which allowed the outward portion of Off Peak Returns and Off Peak Day Returns from Hertford East to be used at any time for +Any Permitted routed tickets has now been closed and the journey planners have been amended. So it's time to move on to the next one.

Apparently staff (not just those on the front line, plus those at ITAL) will be briefed on how to deal with me more efficiently, to include taking more heed of explanations offered to improve their knowledge of the system. The penny has finally dropped that I don't just make it up as I go along and I gather they're not happy about the amount of time spent on me between them, ITAL and ATOC, only for them to reach the same unsatisfactory conclusion every single time. That makes two of us then, well apart from the conclusion which goes in my favour.

The incidents I complained about are still being investigated. Didn't bother bringing up the CCTV farce, but the incident itself is being followed up. What action I take next depends on what Customer Relations say in their next letter to me.
 

maniacmartin

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I hope they are going to pay an administration fee to you for the time you've had to spend dealing with them.
 

GarethW

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I'm surprised EMT haven't offered you a retainer to act as a consultant for them, or at least give a talk or two to their RPIs and Planners.
 

Wolfie

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Had a phonecall today. They're doing the inevitable and dropping any outstanding action with respect to this journey. The lack of contact I have experienced was at the behest of one particular manager who took on the investigations.

ATOC ultimately confirmed to EMT that the tickets I was using in the situation described in the OP were both valid. However, the loophole which allowed the outward portion of Off Peak Returns and Off Peak Day Returns from Hertford East to be used at any time for +Any Permitted routed tickets has now been closed and the journey planners have been amended. So it's time to move on to the next one.

Apparently staff (not just those on the front line, plus those at ITAL) will be briefed on how to deal with me more efficiently, to include taking more heed of explanations offered to improve their knowledge of the system. The penny has finally dropped that I don't just make it up as I go along and I gather they're not happy about the amount of time spent on me between them, ITAL and ATOC, only for them to reach the same unsatisfactory conclusion every single time. That makes two of us then, well apart from the conclusion which goes in my favour.

The incidents I complained about are still being investigated. Didn't bother bringing up the CCTV farce, but the incident itself is being followed up. What action I take next depends on what Customer Relations say in their next letter to me.

With respect to your CCTV issue the next time I suggest you file a formal Subject Access Request. If EMT pay silly buggers the way they did this time they can get to play with a whole new (and likely significantly less sympathetic to them) regulator, namely the Information Commissioner. There are times "when don't get mad, get even" is the way to go.....

http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/cctv.aspx
 

richw

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With respect to your CCTV issue the next time I suggest you file a formal Subject Access Request. If EMT pay silly buggers the way they did this time they can get to play with a whole new (and likely significantly less sympathetic to them) regulator, namely the Information Commissioner. There are times "when don't get mad, get even" is the way to go.....

http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/cctv.aspx

I had a training course at work today regarding Data protection act and information commision. £ 0.5million maximum fine for such breaches if found guilty. Was previously £5000 and ICO raised it as wasnt deemed much of a deterrent. The staff member can also personally be prosecuted for a breach by ICO and a lot of companies wont back their employee so as to clear their own name if they gave the correct training.
 

RJ

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With respect to your CCTV issue the next time I suggest you file a formal Subject Access Request. If EMT pay silly buggers the way they did this time they can get to play with a whole new (and likely significantly less sympathetic to them) regulator, namely the Information Commissioner. There are times "when don't get mad, get even" is the way to go.....

http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/cctv.aspx

I did - requested a CCTV Data Access Request from from Customer Relations which they promptly emailed back then formally sent in the form to the appropriate address by post. I did receive a phone call a few days after they received this, telling me that they were able to action the request but needed another cheque, so I sent them another one a few days later. Final payment did reach them 23 days after the incident (30 days given as the maximum.) After hearing nothing, I called them 8 days after this to follow the matter up and was told that the payment had been received but they had not yet bothered to forward the request on to the station.

They are trying to say that it was because of the delay in receiving payment.
 
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Deerfold

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I did - requested a CCTV Data Access Request from from Customer Relations which they promptly emailed back then formally sent in the form to the appropriate address by post. I did receive a phonecall a few days after they received this, telling me that they were able to action the request but needed another cheque, so I sent them another one. Final payment did reach them 23 days after the incident (30 days given as the maximum) but I was told that they allegedly didn't bother to forward the request on to the station until at least 8 days after this and only after I telephoned them to request an update.

They are trying to say that it was because of the delay in receiving payment but I don't buy it.

Did they insist on their own form being used? The Information Commissioner'scertainly not keen on those for Subject Access requests.

ICO said:
http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/principle_6/access_to_personal_data.aspx][/url]

Can I require individuals to use a specially designed form when making subject access requests?

No. Many organisations produce subject access request forms, and you may invite individuals to use such a form as long as you make it clear that this is not compulsory and you do not try to use this as a way of extending the 40-day time limit for responding. Standard forms can make it easier for you to recognise a subject access request and make it easier for the individual to include all the details you might need to locate the information they want.

However, any request in writing must be considered as a valid request, whatever the format.
 

sheff1

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I did - requested a CCTV Data Access Request from from Customer Relations which they promptly emailed back then formally sent in the form to the appropriate address by post. I did receive a phone call a few days after they received this, telling me that they were able to action the request but needed another cheque, so I sent them another one a few days later. Final payment did reach them 23 days after the incident (30 days given as the maximum.) After hearing nothing, I called them 8 days after this to follow the matter up and was told that the payment had been received but they had not yet bothered to forward the request on to the station.

They are trying to say that it was because of the delay in receiving payment.

Sounds like you have a good case to go to the Information Commissioner with.
 
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