Condition 3 (again)

[Moonshot]

It's not a minor issue if you regularly board at an unstaffed station (or closed ticket office or limited TVM or permit to travel) and regularly use rover / ranger / wayfarer tickets. Hence my earlier question about whether other operators sell such tickets on-line - which would solve the problem for those planning ahead but not for spur of the moment journeys. For a long while, London Midland Guards could not sell West Midlands Dayranger tickets (not the Centro ones, the wider area), which basically meant travelling without a ticket of any kind from Stone to some point within the West Midlands Penalty Fare area in the hope of finding a ticket office before an inspector found you.

As a passenger, I want to enjoy my day out, not be in fear of a criminal record through the inadequacies of the fragmented rail industry. See my previous thread re Rover Tickets with mismatching ticket numbers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Only 800 in a month? I would have though they could do that many in a single peak hour heading into Manchester. Come on Northern, must try harder

It certainly is a minor issue if 99.5% of passengers have never bought or a likely to buy a Rover/Ranger ticket.....we have already had one of the mods tell us he thought they were poorly advertised anyway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It certainly is a minor issue if 99.5% of passengers have never bought or a likely to buy a Rover/Ranger ticket

The specific situation in this particular case probably is a "minor issue", but that makes it worse not better.

If it was something that was common, that happened 50 times a day, then the TOC and their staff would have training on what to do. If it was more common, it would happen less.

Because it isn't that common, many RPIs and gateline revenue officers aren't going to be aware of the situation. Therefore people having boarded without a ticket because they wanted a Rover will be treated just like anyone else who doesn't have a ticket- £80 "penalty" fare or prosecution. The only way to avoid that risk is to buy a ticket and use it in part-exchange for the ticket you wanted to buy but couldn't.

UPFNs are different to what we're talking about. People who are caught without a ticket by an RPI won't be issued a UPFN, they'll be written up for prosecution.

 

[Moonshot]

The specific situation in this particular case probably is a "minor issue", but that makes it worse not better.

If it was something that was common, that happened 50 times a day, then the TOC and their staff would have training on what to do. If it was more common, it would happen less.

Because it isn't that common, many RPIs and gateline revenue officers aren't going to be aware of the situation. Therefore people having boarded without a ticket because they wanted a Rover will be treated just like anyone else who doesn't have a ticket- £80 "penalty" fare or prosecution. The only way to avoid that risk is to buy a ticket and use it in part-exchange for the ticket you wanted to buy but couldn't.

UPFNs are different to what we're talking about. People who are caught without a ticket by an RPI won't be issued a UPFN, they'll be written up for prosecution.

You would have to wonder on which side a judgement came down if it did indeed go to prosecution if it was revealed that a technical issue prevented full compliance with condition 3 ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

You would have to wonder on which side a judgement came down if it did indeed go to prosecution if it was revealed that a technical issue prevented full compliance with condition 3 ?

There isn't a technical issue that prevents the passenger from complying with condition 3. The TVM will sell you an Anytime single to any relevant station.

I don't see how a passenger would be able to defend a Byelaws prosecution.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There isn't a technical issue that prevents the passenger from complying with condition 3. The TVM will sell you an Anytime single to any relevant station.

I don't see how a passenger would be able to defend a Byelaws prosecution.

Exactly.

The passenger has done exactly what he is told to do by the rules. As a result he is inconvenienced (time delay sorting out) and temporarily out of pocket (waiting for refund even if a card reversal). Whose fault is that?

If the passenger does the sensible thing instead, apparently recommended in this thread, and buys on board, he breaks the law and has no defence whatsoever - as people are keen to say - the strict liability offence has been committed, he has boarded a train without a ticket when the opportunity to purchase one existed. The reasons why are not relevant to the offence as Condition 3 clearly explains what the passenger should do.

Perhaps if Northern treated is customers / passengers as generally honest people not intent on robbing them blind at every turn, then people wouldn't get a bee in their bonnet posting on here about supposedly minor issues!

Then again, they could always sell the full range of tickets from their TVM's.

 

[Moonshot]

has anybody got a case study of where a passenger has been forced to pay £80 to Northern?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly.

The passenger has done exactly what he is told to do by the rules. As a result he is inconvenienced (time delay sorting out) and temporarily out of pocket (waiting for refund even if a card reversal). Whose fault is that?

If the passenger does the sensible thing instead, apparently recommended in this thread, and buys on board, he breaks the law and has no defence whatsoever - as people are keen to say - the strict liability offence has been committed, he has boarded a train without a ticket when the opportunity to purchase one existed. The reasons why are not relevant to the offence as Condition 3 clearly explains what the passenger should do.

Perhaps if Northern treated is customers / passengers as generally honest people not intent on robbing them blind at every turn, then people wouldn't get a bee in their bonnet posting on here about supposedly minor issues!

Then again, they could always sell the full range of tickets from their TVM's.

Earlier on this week I happened to be working a service from Blackpool. A customer boarded the train at Poulton le Fylde, and I duly checked her ticket. She had one ...a single to London, but because she was in a rush , had accidentally purchased a single instead of a return. What did I do next?

 

[bb21]

No, because I guess no one on here dared try it out.

Earlier on this week I happened to be working a service from Blackpool. A customer boarded the train at Poulton le Fylde, and I duly checked her ticket. She had one ...a single to London, but because she was in a rush , had accidentally purchased a single instead of a return. What did I do next?

You can excess her ticket. Single to return is a legitimate excess that Avantix allows.

 

[Moonshot]

No, because I guess no one on here dared try it out.



You can excess her ticket. Single to return is a legitimate excess that Avantix allows.

It is indeed ....but i didnt do it......and the reason I didnt do it was because the return she wanted was open.....which would had lead to a rather hefty charge and more commission for me. I simply pointed out that she may well be better off approaching Virgin at Preston ( or use the website ) to get a better value advance ticket for the day she wanted to return.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Off-peak, the excess is £1

Your advice was good however if she returning a different day, or if either trip was during the peaks

 

[Moonshot]

Off-peak, the excess is £1

Your advice was good however if she returning a different day, or if either trip was during the peaks

Absolutely correct Fahad, and indeed thats what I very nearly did without thinking.

 

[Starmill]

OK.....if you were aware that a ticket office was closed and that the TVM didnt sell the type of ticket that you wanted, but you were aware that the guards avantix machine did, surely the simplest thing to do would be to hop on a train and just approach the guard for said ticket? As a guard myself , I would happily sell that.

I point out two things. Firstly, if this is to go down as advice, it directly contravenes Condition 3 (regardless of how many passengers or staff actually know about it). Secondly, lots of guards won't sell rangers or rovers full stop. Either because they haven't heard of it, can't find it, think it will take too long for them to sell it or just because they don't want to - and that's got nowt to do with if there was a TVM available or not, some won't do them either way. You are right that that would be the simplest thing to do, but that doesn't make it the correct one, does it?

Do we include paypoint outlets or the ability to book online in all that?

Neither of those are an opportunity to buy these tickets...

I ll ask the question next time I bump into a colleague at Northern who is involved in online sales.....I ll post the reaction on here.

Would be very interesting to find out if there's an actual reason why these tickets can't be bought online and either posted or collected. Is First Great Western still the only website that supports purchase of these tickets (and mail delivery?)

It certainly is a minor issue if 99.5% of passengers have never bought or a likely to buy a Rover/Ranger ticket.....we have already had one of the mods tell us he thought they were poorly advertised anyway.

The reason you don't see many people with this problem is because 99.5% of passengers, faced with only a TVM from which to purchase their ticket, and unable to find the one they wanted on it, would board the train without one! They would then usually be sold the correct ticket at whatever opportunity, but unwittingly put themselves at risk in the meantime - 'strict liability', remember?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would not be surprised if Avantix didn't permit excessing a point to point into a rover. I believe that this is an oversight by those designing the software....

....There's nothing which says singles or returns can be excessed to a Ranger or Rover, but I think it's clear that this should be done when the Ranger or Rover is not available because of Condition 3. I think you'd struggle to find staff who'd do this in other circumstances....

I think we have to be careful what terms we are using. Whilst condition three implies the same process for Singles, Returns, Rovers and Rangers, staff will usually use the 'Over-Riding' Excess Fare procedure to change the ticket because this is the simplest way to deal with Singles and Returns, but it isn't really what is suppose to happen.

Under condition 3 staff should really be issuing a new ticket and taking part payment for the difference. If this process is used there should be no problem changing a Single/Return into a Ranger or Rover. The problem is that this process is not well known by staff because they simply don't use it, the Excess Fare option is normally all they need and it is shorter and simpler.

....I agree that it's understandable than staff don't know how to do this, though staff should be prepared to look up the relevant guidance when unusual ticketing issues occur....

It was a lot easier before the manuals got upgraded dumped online and gradually improved reduced to be the most slimline unhelpful thing in the ticket office, but yes they should just be able to look it up.

 

[Starmill]

Under condition 3 staff should really be issuing a new ticket and taking part payment for the difference. If this process is used there should be no problem changing a Single/Return into a Ranger or Rover. The problem is that this process is not well known by staff because they simply don't use it, the Excess Fare option is normally all they need and it is shorter and simpler.

Earlier, I asked what the 'correct procedure' for this was. You said "Do an excess wherever possible." - but is this not the case? Taking the part payment seems to be the problem here, is there an official, documented process for doing that? It doesn't seem we can nail down the answer to that, because nobody knows!

My thought is that if you don't know about something, it probably doesn't exist.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Earlier, I asked what the 'correct procedure' for this was. You said "Do an excess wherever possible." - but is this not the case? Taking the part payment seems to be the problem here, is there an official, documented process for doing that? It doesn't seem we can nail down the answer to that, because nobody knows!

My thought is that if you don't know about something, it probably doesn't exist.

I've been trying to dig a little deeper since the previous post.

When I worked in London, we had a little thing on our shift sheets called "Travelcard Exchange", which was meant to be for season tickets and the like but we used it to cover many sins, and "PerTis Exchange", for Permit to Travel tickets. I can find no evidence of these in any manuals up north and I don't know if they use it down south still (or even if it was just an individual TOC thing). I am sure this process still exists but I'm having trouble finding it, hence the use of "should be" in my last post.

As far as the manuals go, the closest they get to this is 'Over-Riding' Excess Fare. If you want it in black and white, that's what you have, but it's not what condition 3 says and it's not what I believe it should be. However, until I can find out exactly what the process really is, it's the best I can offer.

 

[Moonshot]

I've been trying to dig a little deeper since the previous post.

When I worked in London, we had a little thing on our shift sheets called "Travelcard Exchange", which was meant to be for season tickets and the like but we used it to cover many sins, and "PerTis Exchange", for Permit to Travel tickets. I can find no evidence of these in any manuals up north and I don't know if they use it down south still (or even if it was just an individual TOC thing). I am sure this process still exists but I'm having trouble finding it, hence the use of "should be" in my last post.

As far as the manuals go, the closest they get to this is 'Over-Riding' Excess Fare. If you want it in black and white, that's what you have, but it's not what condition 3 says and it's not what I believe it should be. However, until I can find out exactly what the process really is, it's the best I can offer.

I had a dig around myself in the training manuals I have.....I can find no reference to excessing Rover Tickets. But in any event, I ll have a go at this on my avantix tomorrow....issuing Rover tickets is easy, and so is excessing, so in theory the marriage should be easy. I also have a shift sheet we used currently, there is no reference to logging tickets in part exchage on these, though there is a section for "other credits " which I have used for transport tokens.

As an aside to this, I would have thought that using tickets as part exchange would leave the industry open to some sort of fraud......the times I have excessed anything so far has been for tickets originally issued by myself.

 

[joke2711]

I use to make regular journeys from Bache to Leasowe and then complete my journey by bus. The ticket machine at Bache station would only issue a Wirral Lines ticket and not a Saveaway all zones (which includes the bus travel for an extra 10p).

I was normally told to buy a single to Birkenhead Hamilton Square and then go to the ticket office and get a change of ticket and refund. After doing this for a while, I was told b ythe staff that they were not doing this anymore.

This left me with the only option of having to go to Chester (my nearest station is Bache) and buy a Saveaway all zones from the ticket office.

In a similar vain, I travel back from Wigan on a Sunday Evening and always try to purchase a single to Garswood and a All Zones Saveaway. The Virgin Office at Wigan won't sell me a Saveaway (they say they can't do it!).

I travel legally to Garswood but then have to ride through to Liverpool with out holding a ticket from staffed stations. Normally 99% of the time the guard doesn't travel through the train and on arrival at Liverpool Lime Street the desk at the side of the exit gates isn't staffed. I always approach the barrier check, with cash in hand and try and explain my journey, bafflingly, most of the time again they say at the barrier that I will have to go to the ticket office.

I then just walk down to LL at buy my Saveaway from Merseyrail!

The system is floored and I would be extremely agitated if issued with a Penalty Fare by Northern when I attempt to buy my tickets at point of departure. Fortunately it hasn't happened - but I am sure one day it probably will. Doesn't make for a relaxing journey either!

 

[LexyBoy]

May I ask a question on the legal position of someone in the position described by Condition 3?

Passenger arrives at Didcot after the ticket office is closed and wishes to travel to Oxford. This particular passenger is unusually clued up and knows the existence of the Oxford Evening Out ticket, which is £3 compared to the CDR at £5.40. They therefore buy a CDR to Appleford at £3.00 in compliance with Condition 3.

At Oxford there is (hypothetically) an external revenue team who report the passenger for failure to show a valid ticket. The TOC then informs the passenger of their intention to prosecute under Byelaw 18.

My questions are: a) is this permissible? and b) does the passenger having entered into a contract with the TOC provide a defence? c) would there be a difference if the ticket bought had "expired" by the first opportunity to exchange, e.g. it were a single.

I realise that this is all unlikely and that the laws aren't intended to be used in this way, but I'd like to know what the position would be should such a situation arise.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As an aside to this, I would have thought that using tickets as part exchange would leave the industry open to some sort of fraud

Possibly, but I don't see why it's that much different to the old Permit to Travel machines.

There must still be a procedure knocking about for using PerTis vouchers as part-exchange, as the Airedale and Wharfedale lines had them until fairly recently. It must surely be the same situation with using tickets as part-exchange.

At Oxford there is (hypothetically) an external revenue team who report the passenger for failure to show a valid ticket. The TOC then informs the passenger of their intention to prosecute under Byelaw 18.

My questions are: a) is this permissible? and b) does the passenger having entered into a contract with the TOC provide a defence? c) would there be a difference if the ticket bought had "expired" by the first opportunity to exchange, e.g. it were a single.

Condition 3 says you must buy a ticket that enables you to make part of your journey, and exchange it "as soon as reasonably practicable". Effectively this would be the consent required to board a train without a (fully) valid ticket, meaning a Byelaws prosection should fail.

It wouldn't necessarily stop an RPI writing you up, and it wouldn't necessarily stop a TOC from prosecuting, but I would hope that a TOC prosecutor would be fairly clued up on this.

 

[maniacmartin]

My view is that the Appleford ticket is a valid ticket until the passenger reaches the first reasonable opportunity, by virtue of Condition 3, as the Appleford ticket is also issued subject to the NRCoC

 

[Be3G]

There must still be a procedure knocking about for using PerTis vouchers as part-exchange, as the Airedale and Wharfedale lines had them until fairly recently. It must surely be the same situation with using tickets as part-exchange.

I can't speak for National Rail, but the last time I checked, TfL certainly had a procedure for accepting permits to travel as part-exchange at a London Underground station (obviously intended for those that serve National Rail too). I wonder when the last time was that someone actually presented a permit at a tube station!

 

[LexyBoy]

Condition 3 says you must buy a ticket that enables you to make part of your journey, and exchange it "as soon as reasonably practicable". Effectively this would be the consent required to board a train without a (fully) valid ticket, meaning a Byelaws prosection should fail.

That sounds reasonable, though in Byelaw 18.3 only an "authorised person" can give such consent; I don't know if the NRCoC would count as a person for this purpose. (OTOH I don't know if Byelaw 18 can apply to what amounts to a short fare, as the passenger would have "a valid ticket entitling him to travel"... but that's going off topic).

 

[PermitToTravel]

Permits To Travel are still in use at some London stations.

 

[Moonshot]

So just going back to the issue......today I did a test of this on my Avanitx.....it took all of 2 seconds to bring up a GM Evenung Ranger. It also brought up the ways you can pay for this ( exactly the same ways as other tickets ).......however the " Excess " option for this Rover is actually grayed out, meaning it cannot be used. This goes back to a point I made earlier in this thread about it being a technical issue - and also re inforces the advice stated on this forum in the ticketing section ...." You cannot excess a rover ".

I have no idea why that situation exists ( suspect there is probably a very good reason for it though ), but rectifying it is simple - make the " excess " option on our ticket machines live ( in other words un grey it !! )

 

[razor89]

I use to make regular journeys from Bache to Leasowe and then complete my journey by bus. The ticket machine at Bache station would only issue a Wirral Lines ticket and not a Saveaway all zones (which includes the bus travel for an extra 10p).

I was normally told to buy a single to Birkenhead Hamilton Square and then go to the ticket office and get a change of ticket and refund. After doing this for a while, I was told b ythe staff that they were not doing this anymore.

This left me with the only option of having to go to Chester (my nearest station is Bache) and buy a Saveaway all zones from the ticket office.

In a similar vain, I travel back from Wigan on a Sunday Evening and always try to purchase a single to Garswood and a All Zones Saveaway. The Virgin Office at Wigan won't sell me a Saveaway (they say they can't do it!).

I travel legally to Garswood but then have to ride through to Liverpool with out holding a ticket from staffed stations. Normally 99% of the time the guard doesn't travel through the train and on arrival at Liverpool Lime Street the desk at the side of the exit gates isn't staffed. I always approach the barrier check, with cash in hand and try and explain my journey, bafflingly, most of the time again they say at the barrier that I will have to go to the ticket office.

I then just walk down to LL at buy my Saveaway from Merseyrail!

The system is floored and I would be extremely agitated if issued with a Penalty Fare by Northern when I attempt to buy my tickets at point of departure. Fortunately it hasn't happened - but I am sure one day it probably will. Doesn't make for a relaxing journey either!

The staff at Hamilton Square certainly shouldn't have told you that, its a quick and easy process when the ticket is from the same TOC, refund used ticket, issue new one, take difference in cash, job done. No excuse for refusing to do it. I can vaguely remember being told that Saveaways were being made available on the TVM's but don't know if it was followed up.

Same goes for Virgin staff at Wigan. If I can issue every rover currently available in the UK then so can they. It might take a little while to find the right one as they're all listed as weird abbreviations but they are all there.

 

[Flamingo]

I sold another Rover today! That makes TWO! The passenger was railway, and told me where to find it, otherwise we might still be there...

 

[Moonshot]

I sold another Rover today! That makes TWO! The passenger was railway, and told me where to find it, otherwise we might still be there...

Just way too many ticket options in this industry, its time for a severe cull

 

[LowLevel]

The staff at Hamilton Square certainly shouldn't have told you that, its a quick and easy process when the ticket is from the same TOC, refund used ticket, issue new one, take difference in cash, job done. No excuse for refusing to do it. I can vaguely remember being told that Saveaways were being made available on the TVM's but don't know if it was followed up.

Same goes for Virgin staff at Wigan. If I can issue every rover currently available in the UK then so can they. It might take a little while to find the right one as they're all listed as weird abbreviations but they are all there.

Took me ages to find a Saveaway all zones on my bandit (I only work long distance services into Liverpool so don't sell much in the way of local fares there) but I got there in the end. A lot of the time it's about just banging the likely first letter in the name in then scanning the whole list to find the one you need.

 

[razor89]

Just way too many ticket options in this industry, its time for a severe cull

Agree with this, also the long, long list of different restrictions on those tickets.

For example, just looking at the restrictions on the 14 days all line rover. You can use it on the Ffestiniog railway... but not on Heathrow express...

 

[reb0118]

You can use it on the Ffestiniog railway... but not on Heathrow express...

Both the above are in essence private railways and will choose whether or not to accept such tickets as rovers & rangers based on current commercial thinking.

The franchised TOCs, although private in name, I believe are forced to accept rovers & rangers due to there being some sort of safeguards implemented at privatisation to protect certain tickets.

 

[Merseysider]

In a similar vain, I travel back from Wigan on a Sunday Evening and always try to purchase a single to Garswood and a All Zones Saveaway. The Virgin Office at Wigan won't sell me a Saveaway (they say they can't do it!).

They most certainly can do it - the Northern staff at Wallgate issue it no problem. Try buying it from there? There's really no excuse for the Virgin staff not selling it.