Condition 3 (again)

[muz379]

A byelaw prosecution which came about because the Avantix machine the guard uses has this particular function greyed out.....in other words a technical issue. For which I do not know the reason why that exists, but I would suspect that there is a likely one. Which is why I asked the question in this thread, how many other ticket types does this very minor issue affect?

Excessing in general is very easy from an operators point of view.

Do you even know what condition 3 states or what the byelaws are in relation to fare evasion


in the op's post even if the option was there to excess to a Rover on the advantix a strict liability offence would still have been committed by the OP had he not bought the ticket he did from the machine because he would have boarded at a station with facilities to buy a ticket with no ticket in his possession ,All the excess option being available to the guard would have done was avoided the hassle at the ticket office

You or I as the guards on that train might have been more than willing to sell him the rover despite him boarding at a station with a TVM with no ticket .

But what if our ticket machine would have been broken , the batteries dead or we just didn't have one cos of shortages ?

The OP would not know the temperament of the guard or if he has a working machine when he was waiting for the train-but the OP should and does know what the law says and it says he should buy a ticket of any kind to later exchange for the one he wanted to buy in the first place

Say our machine is broken ,then he faces the barrier staff at Piccadilly , they might not have looked upon him so favorably . Looking in the disputes and prosecutions forum there are a few stories about the STM barrier staff at Piccadilly .

He would then be offered the opportunity to pay £80 or be prosecuted . How many times do you think that the barrier staff and prosecutions have heard the phrase "I was going to buy a ticket at Piccadilly" . Even with what I would consider to be a reasonable excuse for not buying a ticket from the TVM the OP could face prosecution afterall the prosecutions department could view the situation entirely differently .


The offence that the OP would have committed by boarding at mauldeth road without a ticket is a strict liability one . That means reasonableness of his story or situation does not come into it . All the court want to know is that he boarded a train at a station with facilities to buy a ticket . And that he was not in possession of a ticket .


As for the situation at the booking office - Being rail staff involved in selling tickets I can understand their predicament , they would come across this situation so infrequently it would not feature in training .

That being said I cant see anything the first guy on the first evening did wrong . Without a laid out procedure to solve the problem he used his initiative and come up with something to solve the problem for the customer . It might not be the best solution but that is not the Virgin employees fault that is the fault of the company/industry he works for

The women on the second night sounded embarrassed that she didn't know the solution . I never get like this with customers , if I dont know something I will hold my hands up and admit it seek help or direct them in the right way to get a solution . She should have got her manager or supervisor if she was not clear of the solution to the problem . she certainly should not have TOC militant in front of a customer that just looks unprofessional .

Referring you to oxford road raises another potential problem , could the OP under condition 3 use his original Mauldeth road to Man Pic ticket to travel onwards to oxford road given that he is intending to get the correct ticket there ?

 

[island]

I have always assumed it's because Rovers/Rangers need to be issued to an individual (presumably to avoid them being "passed on" after use) so can only be sold by physical ticket office staff or guard?

That won't be it. The Virgin machines at Manchester Picc sell them AFAIK.

 

[table38]

That won't be it. The Virgin machines at Manchester Picc sell them AFAIK.

Just had a go at Picadilly and I couldn't persuade the machines to do a Ranger. Does anyone know the appropriate "magic incantation" or maybe there is something that kicks in at 18:30 for Evening Rangers?

 

[Moonshot]

I'm not a train spotter. I've used a GM evening ranger for just one journey - after 2100 it's the cheapest way to travel between Littleborough and Manchester. Fortunately I was able to buy it at a staffed station in advance. Perhaps you rarely see them as the machines don't offer them so many passengers don't know about them?

For someone worried about being prosecuted it's not a minor issue. I've agreed it may only affect a small number of people - but for them it's a major issue.

Although you quoted it, you've not answered my question :



Is it acceptable to make a ticket hard to buy because it's not popular?

Perhaps this is a way to make it less popular so Northern can convince GMPTE to drop it?

I dont see how its difficult to buy.....for starters all Northern trains have guards and its a simple process to produce this ticket.

I think it should be dropped anyway as you state, in line with a total overhaul of ALL ticket options , there needs to be a serious cull, there are way too many options. A 40% reduction would be a ball park figure imo

 

[Deerfold]

I dont see how its difficult to buy.....for starters all Northern trains have guards and its a simple process to produce this ticket.

You really do seem to be missing the point here. If the first person the OP bumps into is an RPI they're liable for prosecution.

I think it should be dropped anyway as you state, in line with a total overhaul of ALL ticket options , there needs to be a serious cull, there are way too many options. A 40% reduction would be a ball park figure imo

Are we just getting rid of the cheaper tickets?

 

[maniacmartin]

I dont see how its difficult to buy.....for starters all Northern trains have guards and its a simple process to produce this ticket.

This isn't relevant as the guard would be after the first opportunity to buy.

 

[Moonshot]

You really do seem to be missing the point here. If the first person the OP bumps into is an RPI they're liable for prosecution.



Are we just getting rid of the cheaper tickets?

I m not missing any point......its a simple ticket to buy.

Where did I mention getting rid of cheaper tickets? I said a 40% cull ( imo ).....which means right across the whole range.



Lets be perfectly frank here, this whole thread was started by a forumite who wanted to prove a minor inconvenience could lead to a prosecution etc, and has extended the point in his orginal post to try and discredit rail staff working on the frontline.

But in the real world of running trains after 6.30pm in Northern Land, if anyone got on a train and asked a guard if they could buy a GM Evening Ranger , they would get one no questions asked.

 

[talltim]

And if they had already bought a ticket as per Condition 3 and the option to excess it to the ranger was greyed out on the guards ticket machine?
And if they hadn't already bought a ticket and met an RPI before the guard?

 

[Moonshot]

And if they had already bought a ticket as per Condition 3 and the option to excess it to the ranger was greyed out on the guards ticket machine?
And if they hadn't already bought a ticket and met an RPI before the guard?

by all means come back to me with some hard facts of how many passengers on a daily basis face the EXACT situation you describe above......

 

[MikeWh]

by all means come back to me with some hard facts of how many passengers on a daily basis face the EXACT situation you describe above......

Are you saying that it is acceptable for one person to be prosecuted? How many before it becomes unacceptable?

 

[Moonshot]

Are you saying that it is acceptable for one person to be prosecuted? How many before it becomes unacceptable?

All I asked for was a simple number of how many passengers face the EXACT situation described in the OP. I never mentioned anything about acceptable or not.........so the reply I would expect to my question would consist of a single numerical value.

 

[bb21]

I don't think anyone doubted the fact that it is only a small number of people who are affected.

The real question, I imagine, is whether we should bother looking for a solution because only a small number of passengers are affected, with potentially big consequences. I think the solution is quite simple really. If Northern can provide some clarification that if the Ranger/Rover product one requires is not available from the machine then this is not classed as an opportunity to buy, then I think we would all be rather happy with that.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't think anyone doubted the fact that it is only a small number of people who are affected.

The real question, I imagine, is whether we should bother looking for a solution because only a small number of passengers are affected, with potentially big consequences. I think the solution is quite simple really. If Northern can provide some clarification that if the Ranger/Rover product one requires is not available from the machine then this is not classed as an opportunity to buy, then I think we would all be rather happy with that.

Which then boils down to the fact that TVMs dont provide the full range of tickets.........so surely then by culling the number of ticket options available from the industry as a whole AND at the same time upgrading TVMs to a more user friendly option which does include whats left of the remaining options after such cull would be ideal?

Just though Id mention in passing that I saw an interesting incident the other week where I pulled into a station with a TVM only on the platform and a passenger was rushing to get a ticket to hop on my train. I gave her some time to do this, but then the TVM clamped her card anyway due to a fault!!

 

[bb21]

Which then boils down to the fact that TVMs dont provide the full range of tickets.........so surely then by culling the number of ticket options available from the industry as a whole AND at the same time upgrading TVMs to a more user friendly option which does include whats left of the remaining options after such cull would be ideal?

Well you could do that, but culling the options alone is not going to solve this problem, unless you get rid of this ticket. I am also sceptical of the effects any such exercise would have, as shown by the major one in 2008.

If they can make the ticket available from the TVMs in the first place, then we wouldn't be here, of course.

 

[Moonshot]

Well you could do that, but culling the options alone is not going to solve this problem, unless you get rid of this ticket. I am also sceptical of the effects any such exercise would have, as shown by the major one in 2008.

If they can make the ticket available from the TVMs in the first place, then we wouldn't be here, of course.

Of course !!

I dont use then at all ( well why would I in my job ) but I looked at one very briefly in passing the other day, and it seemed to show on its prime screen and without pressing any buttons etc, the most popular options for journeys made from that station ( I ve actually forgotten which station it was !! )

 

[muz379]

But in the real world of running trains after 6.30pm in Northern Land, if anyone got on a train and asked a guard if they could buy a GM Evening Ranger , they would get one no questions asked.

You really are missing the point . I think most people would assume the above . Indeed I myself would be happy to sell them an evening ranger even if they boarded at a station with a TVM . But legally this is the wrong assumption to make . Given that the OP is well aware of the byelaws he thought it prudent to act completely in accordance with the law (he might have personal reasons for that ). And found acting in accordance with the law difficult given the procedures and actions of the staff in a booking office . This thread is about that difficulty it was not meant as a debate on if he should or shouldn't have followed the law .


Lets be frank here , you might be able to make that assurance for trains that you run . But you cannot and should not be trying to vouch for every single train that Northern run or that every single guard and RPI is going to be as reasonable and understanding as you or I .

I too would not enforce the rules to the letter if someone boarded at a station with a ticket machine and wanted a ticket not available on that machine . But that is Me . I cannot gurantee that every single guard or RPI would think about it like me so I do not make any promises and would maintain that the OP did the correct thing .


If someone followed your advice they might actually end up with a prosecution . so I would please ask that you cease giving out advice and making guarantees that could be incorrectly construed as pertaining to the procedures within the company you work for . And dont guarantee things on behalf of colleagues and indeed the third party contractors that are also involved in revenue collection at Northern because ultimately your comments could lead to someone facing prosecution , even if the risk of it actually happening in the real world is very very slim .

And that is the purpose of condition 3 . because if you get a guard or ticket inspector who wants to play by the rules saying that some supposed northern guard on a forum said that I would be okay to board without a ticket it is not going to be a defence to the offence that that person would be committing and so they could face prosecution or a fine .

 

[Deerfold]

I m not missing any point......its a simple ticket to buy.

The whole point is it's not - as the OP has found.

Where did I mention getting rid of cheaper tickets? I said a 40% cull ( imo ).....which means right across the whole range.

I didn't say you did - I was wondering if you would be concentrating on any particular type of tickets.

Lets be perfectly frank here, this whole thread was started by a forumite who wanted to prove a minor inconvenience could lead to a prosecution etc, and has extended the point in his orginal post to try and discredit rail staff working on the frontline.

I think he wanted to know how he could easily buy the ticket he wants without risking prosecution. He explained the problems he's had on the frontline. Some of these staff seem to have been extremely unhelpful. Others have been apologetic but suggested he try the ticket office. some have been helpful. Should he not mention any behaviour from rail staff that's less than perfect?

For him, the inconvenience has not been minor - I'm wondering why you're so insistent it is.

But in the real world of running trains after 6.30pm in Northern Land, if anyone got on a train and asked a guard if they could buy a GM Evening Ranger , they would get one no questions asked.

And again you ignore the point that if he meets the wrong person he could be prosecuted with no defence as he hasn't followed the rules in the NRCoC.

 

[RJ]

would that situation occur if a guard took a ticket in part exchange , but then keyed in the wrong amount against the new ticket, and the ticket taken in part exchange was physically presented to accounts as part of the " end of shift " process?

I work in a ticket office. The TIS I use can't excess rovers, Travelcards or any "period" ticket that isn't classified as a single or return (with both an outward and return portion.)

In the situation described by the OP, I would take in the ticket, issue the rover then find an appropriate credit sundry to match the amount of the retained ticket so my till balances. Then attach a short note to the ticket and sundry coupon clearly explaining that it was issued for compliance with NRCoC Condition 3. The IKB says the following;

When a ticket office / sales point is open but does not sell the full ticket range

Customers may not always be able to purchase appropriate tickets for their journey at the ticket office or a self-service ticket machine at the originating station; from the conductor of a pay-train; or from the driver of an advertised connecting coach. In these circumstances, customers are required to purchase tickets for part of their journey and then pay excess fares, to enable them to reach their destination, at the earliest opportunity - either from train staff or the ticket office at an interchange station.

I don't think an excess fare necessarily has to take the form of an excess ticket - so long as the difference is paid and the appropriate ticket is issued to the customer, there shouldn't be any accounting issues.

 

[bb21]

I agree. I think this is the most sensible course of action.

Managers that tell ticket office staff off for doing this should really hang their heads in shame.

 

[Starmill]

There's only one member of railstaff I'd like to discredit, Moonshot, no matter what you think. Can you guess who it is?

 

[AngusH]

I can't see how a member of the staff can possibly be responsible for their employer failing to provide the correct equipment or procedures for doing something.

It is clearly the failure of the operating company if the staff don't have a valid process for this.


Though, if this is happening regularly, then something needs to be done. I very much dislike the idea that the operator may ignore parts of the conditions of carriage. Although this may be a uncommon type of ticket, the fact is that there is a problem buying it according to the rules. And of course, if an operator successfully ignores one part and get away with it, what is to stop them ignoring other parts in the future?

If complaints to the operator have been ignored, then maybe what's needed is formal enforcement by the government.

[As bb21 wrote earlier in the thread] Perhaps a formal complaint by the OP to passenger focus or to their MP (and hopefully then to the select committee) might do some good?

On the other hand it may just get ignored. Who can say?

 

[muz379]

I can't see how a member of the staff can possibly be responsible for their employer failing to provide the correct equipment or procedures for doing something.

It is clearly the failure of the operating company if the staff don't have a valid process for this.

I agree with you on this ,

however if the OP is telling it as exactly as it was then the guy that the OP encountered on the first evening at the ticket office did what any good person working in customer service should do , He mitigated the fact that his company had not prepared him to deal with the situation which does and will happen . And he found a workaround for the customer .

The woman on the second evening used the fact that her company had not prepared her as a reason to not assist the customer any further . Blaming issues on cross TOC problems does not look very professional in front of the customer does it regardless of if that is the truth . The very least she should have done if the customer was insisting that he was right was to get a manager involved .

When dealing with customers there are loads of things there wont be procedures for , you just have to come up with solutions to their problems sometimes .

 

[Starmill]

It is a minor issue...........and the reason its minor is that very few evening rangers are sold. How do I know that? Because part of my role ( and this has been highlighted by another guard on here ) is checking tickets. And its extemely rare to see these GM evening rangers, they are just not popular. What they do in effect is give the user 5 hours of unlimted use of trains in the Greater Manchester area after 6.30pm. Sounds like an ideal ticket for a trainspotter , though to what extent it is any use in the winter when its dark is debatable.

Who said anything about trainspotting? And who would want to go trainspotting after dark?

It's a shame there's been no real closure on this issue, I'm still waiting for a response about the events of the OP.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps this is a way to make it less popular so Northern can convince GMPTE to drop it?

:cry::cry::cry:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are we just getting rid of the cheaper tickets?

It looks like that's what's happened. Maybe Moonshot is working with the DfT mandarins now! :cry::cry::cry:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But in the real world of running trains after 6.30pm in Northern Land, if anyone got on a train and asked a guard if they could buy a GM Evening Ranger , they would get one no questions asked.

A number of Piccadilly guards I know won't sell anything that isn't a single or a return.

 

[maniacmartin]

Here's how it is in iKB (successor to The Manual):

When a ticket office / sales point is open but does not sell the full ticket range

Customers may not always be able to purchase appropriate tickets for their journey at the ticket office or a self-service ticket machine at the originating station; from the conductor of a pay-train; or from the driver of an advertised connecting coach. In these circumstances, customers are required to purchase tickets for part of their journey and then pay excess fares, to enable them to reach their destination, at the earliest opportunity - either from train staff or the ticket office at an interchange station.

It doesn't quite tally with Condition 3 of the customer-facing NRCoC, as Rovers have been overlooked, but the general gist is the same.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Most people seem to agree that boarding a train, having passed the opportunity to buy a ticket, is a strict liability criminal offence.

I find it worrying that guards / ticket offices are not aware of the fundamental requirement placed on them and passengers by condition 3.

Let's move it on slightly.

I board a train at a station with no ticket facilities whatsoever (Blythe Bridge) and am travelling to Pembroke Dock. I buy an OPR to Shrewsbury from the guard, no problems, but he cannot sell me the South Wales Flexipass that I require for the remainder of the journey. Arriva Trains Wales are quite clear that I cannot buy any kind of rover from the guard, even if boarding at an unmanned station.

1) How far beyond Shrewsbury should I travel ticketless (having satisfied condition 3 by buying an OPR for part of my journey). Change at Crewe - insufficient connection time and I am not required to miss a connection to buy a ticket. Through train as far as Whitland (unstaffed) then on to Pembroke (unstaffed).

2) If I were making the journey in the reverse direction, how do I obtain my rover ticket? Pembroke Dock has a ticket machine on which I could not find any kind of rover ticket - and yes there was an advert for the Flexipass but with no indication of how you actually get hold of one! The guard apparently cannot sell them according to ATW publicity (I didn't ask him to try). They are not available on-line for postal, personal or TOD collection.

Perhaps it would be easier if I spent time and money going, no more than three days in advance of course, to my nearest staffed station simply to make the railways job easier? Or I could just get in my car and drive instead.

 

[Starmill]

Or I could just get in my car and drive instead.

This does appear to be the intention of some TOCs.

Unfortunately, some of us don't have this option and have to risk being prosecuted!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I board a train at a station with no ticket facilities whatsoever (Blythe Bridge) and am travelling to Pembroke Dock. I buy an OPR to Shrewsbury from the guard, no problems, but he cannot sell me the South Wales Flexipass that I require for the remainder of the journey. Arriva Trains Wales are quite clear that I cannot buy any kind of rover from the guard, even if boarding at an unmanned station.

1) How far beyond Shrewsbury should I travel ticketless (having satisfied condition 3 by buying an OPR for part of my journey). Change at Crewe - insufficient connection time and I am not required to miss a connection to buy a ticket. Through train as far as Whitland (unstaffed) then on to Pembroke (unstaffed)....

As soon as is reasonably practicable (Source: NRCoC Condition 3).

There is no specific indication that you must or must not miss a connection, however, if the connection is quite close and runs every hour (or worse), it might not be reasonably practicable. On the other hand, if your connection is every 15 minutes and the ticket office is on the platform you arrive on or depart from (or on the bridge/in the subway), I would say it is reasonably practicable.

....2) If I were making the journey in the reverse direction, how do I obtain my rover ticket? Pembroke Dock has a ticket machine on which I could not find any kind of rover ticket - and yes there was an advert for the Flexipass but with no indication of how you actually get hold of one! The guard apparently cannot sell them according to ATW publicity (I didn't ask him to try). They are not available on-line for postal, personal or TOD collection....

See above. Perhaps you should ask ATW where you can purchase this rover from?

....Perhaps it would be easier if I spent time and money going, no more than three days in advance of course, to my nearest staffed station simply to make the railways job easier?....

Possibly, but there is no obligation to go this far out of your way to buy the ticket.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This does appear to be the intention of some TOCs.

Unfortunately, some of us don't have this option and have to risk being prosecuted!

I don't have a car either so am in the same boat - just using that as a response most people would give when faced with any hassle (i.e. most households have at least 1 car nowadays).

In the example given, used last week, the cost difference between a through OPR ticket, a 'Trains Can Be Cheaper' split ticket option and the rover option were substantial - with no peak restriction on the Blythe Bridge to Shrewsbury OPR, 2 extra days rail travel and the full 8 days bus travel thrown in, effectively for free.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't have a car either so am in the same boat - just using that as a response most people would give when faced with any hassle (i.e. most households have at least 1 car nowadays).

In the example given, used last week, the cost difference between a through OPR ticket, a 'Trains Can Be Cheaper' split ticket option and the rover option were substantial - with no peak restriction on the Blythe Bridge to Shrewsbury OPR, 2 extra days rail travel and the full 8 days bus travel thrown in, effectively for free.

Would this ticket being available online make a difference for you ?

 

[yorkie]

I understand someone contacted Northern who replied saying people can simply buy on board. No need to buy a part fare ticket. SWT said the same to Mojo a while back.

Not all TOCs enforce Condition 3