Conductor vs Driver training

[anonymous0101]

A colleague of a friend has recently undertaken a conductors course for TPE. The traction he learns includes classes 141/142,153,158 and 185. In addition he has to have route knowledge Manchester to Cleethorpes including diversions. The lines he works on also have several different types of level crossing which he has to learn and single line working with token. They are also involved with both releasing and closing the doors.

This sounds like quite an involved job - and perhaps the hardest conductors job I have heard of. Does anyone know of any more?

My colleague also considers his conductors training to be harder than training to do an 'easy' drivers job such as Heathrow Express as their drivers only learn one type of unit and one route. What do others think?

 

[royaloak]

Did he have to go to Iran to learn the 141s?

That is about right for a "normal" TOC, if your friends wants to think that is more involved than train driving then let him, did he spend 10 weeks on rules with 378 questions at the end of it? shall I go on? Why doesnt he compare it with driving the same routes he will guard over, ie like for like!

If he thinks driving for HEx is so easy tell him to apply and see how far he gets!

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm a conductor and I disagree with this. Firstly, route knowledge is different between guards and drivers. Guards need only to have an aquaintance as opposed to a thorough knowledge of a route as a driver must have. Secondly, and i'm not by any means an expert, I doubt there is a massive difference between 14x units operationally and I know there isn't for 15x units, at least from the guards perspective anyway. There is also the small matter of the rules course being a few weeks shorter than a drivers. At my TOC I got 4 weeks of rules to the drivers 10 I think. Though I haven't many modules less than a driver there is generally more information for him per module anyway. In any case, it's an impressive amount of traction knowledge and i'm sure the route knowledge is also. I have signed for though no longer work many of, 156, 158, 170, 318, 322 and loco hauled mk2 and 3. Just missed out on the pleasure of the 101's though I travelled on them many a time as a youngster.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

i'm sure i'm right in saying, that it's actually the guard who is in charge of his train, not the driver? Being a guard can be quite hard tbh, I mean you have to know your rules & regs obviously, route knowledge, ticket knowledge, I know at atw you take care of your own float as well, then theres dealing with the bane of the public i.e. drunks, fare dodgers etc. it's not all as easy as it looks thats for sure

 

[royaloak]

oh pedantic mode, would you like me to start!

So when the train, that the guard is in charge of apparently, fails why is it the driver that sorts thing out!

 

[driver9000]

i'm sure i'm right in saying, that it's actually the guard who is in charge of his train, not the driver?

Until it all goes horribly wrong when its suddenly the drivers head on the block :roll:


My driver training was 12 months from start to finish with PTS, Rules, Traction (4 types), Routes, 250hrs Practical handling compared to a Guards course of 12 weeks from start to finish. Guards dont have half the operational knowledge a driver does, we have to know our routes and traction inside out, know our own rules and have an understanding of the rules governing other grades we may come into contact with such as signalmen, pilotman, handsignallers and engineers staff. My final pass out exam was well over 1500 questions on all subject relating to drivers duties. When a Guard isnt operating doors or collecting fares they are in the back cab reading the paper/playing games while the driver is working constantly from the moment the train moves away.

 

[Bellwater]

If said person is going to Cleethorpes, which it sounds like, they won't sign 142s or 158s. more likely 153, 170 and 185.

 

[33056]

The guard, guards the driver's train on the signalman's railway.

That's my take on it

 

[CarterUSM]

Nice analogy 33056. The guard was in charge though now the Driver has lead responsibility due to a rules change some time ago. I wouldn't quite go as far to say we don't have half of the operational knowledge of a driver, but the Driver in recent years has gained more of the Guards duties whilst the Guards role has diminished somewhat especially on DOO services where the Driver has all the Guards duties now. That is another debate though. Where I work, the Driver loves having a Guard, as it lets him actually drive, and we also respect each others role.

 

[driver9000]

I like having a guard as CarterUSM says it lets me get on with driving the train I'd hate to be working in a DOO area and if it didnt come across in my previous post I have the utmost respect for the Guards grade.

 

[TDK]

i'm sure i'm right in saying, that it's actually the guard who is in charge of his train, not the driver? Being a guard can be quite hard tbh, I mean you have to know your rules & regs obviously, route knowledge, ticket knowledge, I know at atw you take care of your own float as well, then theres dealing with the bane of the public i.e. drunks, fare dodgers etc. it's not all as easy as it looks thats for sure

The thread is about the training not the job description, the guard is in charge of the passengers, the driver is in charge of the operation of the train.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A colleague of a friend has recently undertaken a conductors course for TPE. The traction he learns includes classes 141/142,153,158 and 185. In addition he has to have route knowledge Manchester to Cleethorpes including diversions. The lines he works on also have several different types of level crossing which he has to learn and single line working with token. They are also involved with both releasing and closing the doors.

This sounds like quite an involved job - and perhaps the hardest conductors job I have heard of. Does anyone know of any more?

My colleague also considers his conductors training to be harder than training to do an 'easy' drivers job such as Heathrow Express as their drivers only learn one type of unit and one route. What do others think?

There is just no comparison in hardly any part of the training, Guard 12 weeks, Driver 9 months to 1 year and that does not include the road learning, I think that answers your question, as for "easy drivers job" take the road learning away and maybe multiple traction and the Heathrow Express training will be the same as any other driversjob, I think either your colleague is on a wind up or your post is trying to induce some Guard/driver banter on the forum
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The guard, guards the driver's train on the signalman's railway.

That's my take on it

Posted tongue in cheek no doubt, there are not guards any more, the are either conductors, train managers or train hosts, shame really

 

[Bellwater]

SWT have Commercial and Non Commercial Guards.

Merseyrail have Guards.

East Coast have Train Guards.

EMT refer to all its staff trained in Guard's duties as Train Guards for assesment purposes.

 

[anonymous0101]

', as for "easy drivers job" take the road learning away and maybe multiple traction and the Heathrow Express training will be the same as any other driversjob, I think either your colleague is on a wind up or your post is trying to induce some Guard/driver banter on the forum'

My colleague is not on a wind up. He is was a bus driver and is new to the industry.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A colleague of a friend has recently undertaken a conductors course for TPE

My colleague is not on a wind up. He is was a bus driver and is new to the industry.

Is it your colleague or colleague of a friend? Or is it actually yourself?

 

[CarterUSM]

It doesn't matter what you want to call us, the rule book, for the sake of clarity calls us guards(where provided). I like the brackets the best No worries driver9000, I wasn't nipping or anything, just trying to give a well balanced explanation to a pretty questionable post earlier in the thread.

 

[anonymous0101]

Is it your colleague or colleague of a friend? Or is it actually yourself?

It is a colleagues friend. And nope it isn't me. I had a 90 minute phone conversation with the person concerned, and 60 minutes of it was about his new job!

 

[TDK]

', as for "easy drivers job" take the road learning away and maybe multiple traction and the Heathrow Express training will be the same as any other driversjob, I think either your colleague is on a wind up or your post is trying to induce some Guard/driver banter on the forum'

My colleague is not on a wind up. He is was a bus driver and is new to the industry.

If he is new to the industry maybe a word of advice then, if quotes these sort of things in the mess room he will not be impressing anyone. There has been for years an invisible rift between guards and drivers and it does not take a lot to wind both parties up. I myself respect allon the railway from cleaners to managers but some of the drivers look down on other railway workers and it these folks that could be a problem for your mate if he/she quotes such things. I like having a guard on the train as I have worked bot DOO and with a guard however the guards job, and this is why I have said there are not guards anymore has diminished over the years to maybe just a train host. I have even heard drivers quote the guards as glorified mars bar sellers.

I am sure you mate will learn the way of the railway soon enough

 

[ungreat]

I would give half my wages back to have a guard with me..no bull.

Its safer,without a doubt,and the assurance that someone else is on the train is one hell of a calmer!

 

[CarterUSM]

That's what all the drivers I work with say ungreat. I think ASLEF would have issue regards your wages though.

 

[ungreat]

I would though...its how it should be

 

[313103]

Until it all goes horribly wrong when its suddenly the drivers head on the block :roll:


My driver training was 12 months from start to finish with PTS, Rules, Traction (4 types), Routes, 250hrs Practical handling compared to a Guards course of 12 weeks from start to finish. Guards dont have half the operational knowledge a driver does, we have to know our routes and traction inside out, know our own rules and have an understanding of the rules governing other grades we may come into contact with such as signalmen, pilotman, handsignallers and engineers staff. My final pass out exam was well over 1500 questions on all subject relating to drivers duties. When a Guard isnt operating doors or collecting fares they are in the back cab reading the paper/playing games while the driver is working constantly from the moment the train moves away.

WOW lets get the country to bow before your superior intelligence. Actually when things do go horribly wrong its not just your bleedin head on the block and i think you will find that other grades do not get away with half the stuff drivers do. I mean putting a train through a sand drag (technically off the road as leading Bogey was not in contact with rails), passing the stop board, and a red signal, then reversing off the sand drag (Technically rerailing), without informing the signaller, without informing the Guard, without informing the Control How many contraventions of the rules was broken here all this on a passenger train and yet this individual is still a driver! Yet i have had to represent people who have given two on the bell at a red signal and they have either lost their job or been downgraded (first time offence) So much for when it all goes horribly wrong it falls on the drivers head:roll:

No matter how long your course was, i could quite easily say that your not really a driver because 'PROPER' driver training took far longer then 1 year. That was before such things as a PQSD.
Nice to notice the little knock at the end of your statement, you must be a newbie in the rail industry to make a comment like that.

Despite what you say above i have probably forgotten more then you know!

 

[driver9000]

I only write based on my experiences and observations, but my comment regarding papers and games was meant to highlight that the guard has little to do in the normal running of a train outside of his/her normal station and revenue duties. I may not have written clearly enough or maybe should have added a little winky face to clarify the tongue in cheek nature if the comment.

What is considered a 'newbie' please, times have moved on from BR when you had secondman/trainman grades or MP12 which were much longer training periods and I agree the training alone doesnt make you a 'proper driver' as you put it or is every driver since the end of BR not a 'proper driver'? seeing as this thread is about todays and not BR training I deemed it relevant to compare the time spent for driver and guard training times. You may well have forgotten more than I know but Ive no wish to argue or fall out.

 

[kestrel]

A colleague of a friend has recently undertaken a conductors course for TPE. The traction he learns includes classes 141/142,153,158 and 185. In addition he has to have route knowledge Manchester to Cleethorpes including diversions. The lines he works on also have several different types of level crossing which he has to learn and single line working with token. They are also involved with both releasing and closing the doors.

This sounds like quite an involved job - and perhaps the hardest conductors job I have heard of. Does anyone know of any more?

My colleague also considers his conductors training to be harder than training to do an 'easy' drivers job such as Heathrow Express as their drivers only learn one type of unit and one route. What do others think?

Tell your conductor mate to come to HEx and train as a driver, i can tell you now he won't even get thru the first assessment stage!.

Also for the record we learn 2 types of traction (332 also 360/2's) both on very different types of service one express the other a tightly timed commuter service both DOO trains (ie we do the job of BOTH guard and driver!).

And i can add up until recently we did 'on train' duties which included revenue protection (ie selling tks), despatch duties at Paddington and at the section 12 stations at Heathrow airport, we also worked the tkt desks at both Paddington and Heathrow airport.

We may only learn 'one' route but it is one of, if not the busiest in the country , especially the Paddington throat area.

Your 'mate' is more than welcome to come and have a cab ride (proper arrangement with HEx) on an easy Heathrow Connect job during the morning or evening peak, with delays points failure TCF's etc!

 

[SWT Driver]

My colleague also considers his conductors training to be harder than training to do an 'easy' drivers job such as Heathrow Express as their drivers only learn one type of unit and one route. What do others think?

Has he done the "easy" driver training then, if not how has he any idea what he is talking about?

If he thinks conductor training is "hard" then he wouldnt have a chance in hell of getting through the driver assessments never mind the training, your colleague wants to keep his gob shut unless he knows what he is talking about, which he obviously doesnt.

Would love to see how long he lasts in the messroom with an attitude like his! :roll:

 

[TDK]

Has he done the "easy" driver training then, if not how has he any idea what he is talking about?

If he thinks conductor training is "hard" then he wouldnt have a chance in hell of getting through the driver assessments never mind the training, your colleague wants to keep his gob shut unless he knows what he is talking about, which he obviously doesnt.

Would love to see how long he lasts in the messroom with an attitude like his! :roll:

He wouldn't even get through the driver's interview let alone the training. I have come across folks like this and unfortunatley they are usually the first to have an incident. Could be a driver or a guard however as earlier posted I think this chap will sink into the corner of the messroom.

 

[royaloak]

As everybody knows driving a train is easy, I mean you dont even have to steer do you! :roll:

Try it and let me know how you get on, what they dont see is doing the same 10 routes in freezing fog where you cant even see the rails in front of you never mind the stations, or fixing the train in the middle of nowhere when its stopped for no good reason with 500 people giving you grief, or the route and traction knowledge that needs updating continuously, or the getting up at 3AM, or finishing at 2AM, or how easy it is to make a small mistake that has BIG repercussions. Oh yeah its just pushing a few buttons isnt it!

 

[TDK]

As everybody knows driving a train is easy, I mean you dont even have to steer do you! :roll:

Try it and let me know how you get on, what they dont see is doing the same 10 routes in freezing fog where you cant even see the rails in front of you never mind the stations, or fixing the train in the middle of nowhere when its stopped for no good reason with 500 people giving you grief, or the route and traction knowledge that needs updating continuously, or the getting up at 3AM, or finishing at 2AM, or how easy it is to make a small mistake that has BIG repercussions. Oh yeah its just pushing a few buttons isnt it!

Well put, I think there should be a survey on here for all those that are not train drivers, how many want to be or would like to be probably 99% of them. I think it is sour grapes, for 4 posts at a depot I used to run there were 700 applicants, for 14 jobs for guards there were 57, nuff said.

 

[TheWalrus]

My colleague also considers his conductors training to be harder than training to do an 'easy' drivers job such as Heathrow Express as their drivers only learn one type of unit and one route. What do others think?

HX drivers learn 332s and HC 360s.

 

[MichelleFrance]

Hi this is my first post! My dream job like most people on this forum is to become a train driver. I have spent most my working life in senior management in a trainer capacity. I am finding it difficult to find any trainee driver posts in the Northwest. I am now looking for a Guard/Conductor role until a vacancy arises. I spend every evening testing myself for the tests. I have spent most of my working life in male dominated industries so I am not worried about become a female driver. I find working with mainly men more enjoyable than women. If anyone in the Northwest can point me in the right direction I would be more than greatful. I have joined most job alerts on the TOC's home pages.

 

[defitzi]

A colleague of a friend has recently undertaken a conductors course for TPE. The traction he learns includes classes 141/142,153,158 and 185. In addition he has to have route knowledge Manchester to Cleethorpes including diversions. The lines he works on also have several different types of level crossing which he has to learn and single line working with token. They are also involved with both releasing and closing the doors.

This sounds like quite an involved job - and perhaps the hardest conductors job I have heard of. Does anyone know of any more?

My colleague also considers his conductors training to be harder than training to do an 'easy' drivers job such as Heathrow Express as their drivers only learn one type of unit and one route. What do others think?

Interesting! After a lifetime travelling trains, (I workeds a Summer job a longtime ago ticketing and routing (mainly wealthy trvellers and touring Americans (rich by our standards) in UK and Europe, for Hotel Plan-an offshoot of Swiss tourism:mainly railways, steamers and hotels. My experience since then (latterley in France but over the years in many EC counries) most (multi-lingual) ticket inspectors (and many guards), senior and junior, express and local (TER) trains are simply fantastic at their jobs! All seem to carry comprehensive route books seemingly for the whole system certainly for large parts of it presumably relative to the routes they are on-maybe regional?- and invariably, they not only will help with conections, but the do re-ticketing too if necessary. And Ive found those same standards in many European countries