Confirmation of rolling stock changes at Southeastern, including 707s

[Starmill]

How dramatic. So the government are happy for Direct Award franchises to take out new leases, even if it is at buyers' market rates. Unless any of the existing fleet at Southeastern is retiring, of course?

 

[Meerkat]

A sensible short term measure, Southeastern needs more capacity urgently and the 707s are the obvious short term solution

It does look slightly inconsistent though, with the 707s being rejected by SWR due to issues like this and the poor acceleration (and which then gets a common fleet to replace a range of units) but then get passed over to another franchise

SWR had business case to replace everything. Southeastern don’t at the moment so are taking what is available

 

[Domh245]

It does look slightly inconsistent though, with the 707s being rejected by SWR due to issues like this and the poor acceleration (and which then gets a common fleet to replace a range of units) but then get passed over to another franchise

Only looks inconsistent if you gloss over the facts that
a) this is a short direct award vs SWR's 7 year contract - anything here is a sticking plaster until a longer term solution can be developed, something that DfT is probably not left to do on it's own given their track record
b) SWR's metro services are generally more crowded (and thus in need of every last bit of capacity) than SE's which helps justify them casting off the 707s

 

[43096]

I've always thought RAIL was a reliable source, although I'd trust Today's Railways more than this.

I’m truly astonished that Rail would be considered a reliable source. Not known as “Liar” for nothing!

 

[swt_passenger]

A sensible short term measure, Southeastern needs more capacity urgently and the 707s are the obvious short term solution

It does look slightly inconsistent though, with the 707s being rejected by SWR due to issues like this and the poor acceleration (and which then gets a common fleet to replace a range of units) but then get passed over to another franchise

I’d like to see the evidence that “poor acceleration” was a factor in First MTR deciding not to keep them. They were designed to meet the existing inner suburban performance, and SWR staff have posted before that performance is OK.

Yes, they are underpowered with respect to 700s, but the latter had a different specification requirement for degraded operation with only half the train powered up.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Ah, ok. But then I'm confused. I thought there was a problem with running trains without toilets on the Hayes line. How can they continue running trains without toilets on longer routes, e.g. Charing Cross to Orpington?

What makes you think there's a problem with running trains without toilets on the Hayes line? 376's have run the route from introduction

And lots of trains run on longer routes without toilets - or working toilets; this isn't just pertinent to SouthEastern

And Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Victoria/Blackfriars to Orpington is a metro route

 

[jopsuk]

Couple of points:
As anyone that's had the joy knows, you can be "made redundant" some time before you actually stop working for an employer (though usually just your notice period, if at all). And we all know the history of SWR and the 7097s, so that's not inaccurate.

the bogs thing is done to death but obviously with regards eg Orpington services, see Metropolitan Line for reference. Or the Southwestern/Southern services using 455s

So, given the 701 issues, when is this even going to be?

 

[43096]

I’d like to see the evidence that “poor acceleration” was a factor in First MTR deciding not to keep them. They were designed to meet the existing inner suburban performance, and SWR staff have posted before that performance is OK.

Yes, they are underpowered with respect to 700s, but the latter had a different specification requirement for degraded operation with only half the train powered up.

Quite, and the transfer to using them to Shepperton from the December timetable change was because of their superior performance to the rest of the fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A fairly big part of First MTR's decision was in wanting a single suburban fleet, wasn't it? They could have ordered more 700s, but there aren't many of them so why limit your supplier in that way?

 

[Domh245]

Uniform fleet was a big factor yes, but Desiro City as a product doesn't qualify for the highest standing capacity unless almost completely redesigned so that you can put grab handles on the ceiling.

 

[MotCO]

What makes you think there's a problem with running trains without toilets on the Hayes line? 376's have run the route from introduction

Maybe I'm getting confused with disability access?

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe I'm getting confused with disability access?

Possibly. If a toilet is fitted then the train must have at least one that is accessible but there's no requirement for a train to have a toilet.

 

[ScotGG]

Maybe 12 car services? They cannot run on Hayes and Woolwich lines I believe, nor rounders or use some CX platforms.

More 10 car trains via 707 is good but doesn't address the 12 car issue and utilising platforms such as Woolwich Dockyard and Charing Cross.

 

[hwl]

376s don't have toilets.

There are 30 total 707s (150 vehicles) - there are a total of 147 465s built and 43 466s but it's worth noting that there are 150 vehicles between the 465/2 and 466 fleet - both of which are owned by Angel, who happen to also own the 707s. But that's speculation as there's nothing officially confirming this, let alone what routes they'll be working or any other details

One backed by the DfT I'd suggest!

With the 707s arriving that will be far more 2car 466s than SE can actually use and they aren't fully PRM'd.
Soem 4car 465 could also be displaced but probably more than could be use to lengthen services all the possible Networker services to 12 car so some 465s being displaced is probably on the cards might help. I wouldn't expect 150car to leave...
The /2s and 466s have the worst reliability in the networker fleet

 

[hwl]

Maybe 12 car services? They cannot run on Hayes and Woolwich lines I believe, nor rounders or use some CX platforms.

More 10 car trains via 707 is good but doesn't address the 12 car issue and utilising platforms such as Woolwich Dockyard and Charing Cross.

No huge barriers to 12 car Hayes services apart for lack of stock making it a bit chicken and egg!
plenty of networker services could be run longer than they are now.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Great news about the 707s going to Southeastern. As there is talk of new trains replacing the Networker fleet also possibly the older Electrostars so the 707s could be a temporary measure that they probably need a more permanent home in the future if it is not with Southeastern.

Before this announcement I believed the 707s may go to Southern for the 455 operated routes or coastway services, with upgraded interiors, replacing the 313s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great news about the 707s going to Southeastern. As there is talk of new trains replacing the Networker fleet also possibly the older Electrostars so the 707s could be a temporary measure that they probably need a more permanent home in the future if it is not with Southeastern.

Before this announcement I believed the 707s may go to Southern for the 455 operated routes or coastway services, with upgraded interiors, replacing the 313s.

Arguably because Southern are a "Bombardier shop" it would make sense for them to order Aventras for their fleet. SE are more mixed so the mixed fleet is less of an issue for them.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

No huge barriers to 12 car Hayes services apart for lack of stock making it a bit chicken and egg!
plenty of networker services could be run longer than they are now.

I'm not sure if every station on the Hayes line can accommodate 12-car trains

 

[Class 466]

A sensible short term measure, Southeastern needs more capacity urgently and the 707s are the obvious short term solution

It does look slightly inconsistent though, with the 707s being rejected by SWR due to issues like this and the poor acceleration (and which then gets a common fleet to replace a range of units) but then get passed over to another franchise

The acceleration on a 707 is hardly 'poor'.

 

[Class 466]

I'm not sure if every station on the Hayes line can accommodate 12-car trains

They Hayes line sees a 12 car 465 once a day currently, the entire metro except for Woolwich Dockyard can take a 12 car.

 

[Chiltern006]

will these trains recieve the full blue livery (375) or the 465/466 livery?

 

[ComUtoR]

They Hayes line sees a 12 car 465 once a day currently, the entire metro except for Woolwich Dockyard can take a 12 car.

Chatham mainline is 8, so is the Catford Loop.

 

[Class 466]

Chatham mainline is 8, so is the Catford Loop.

Was referring to the London Bridge Metro, The Victoria side stuff is irrelevant given 707s wont being going near it!

 

[Chiltern006]

Was referring to the London Bridge Metro, The Victoria side stuff is irrelevant given 707s wont being going near it!

ive heard they are being used for Victoria-Bromley/Orpington runs and Victoria-Gravesend runs

 

[Islineclear3_1]

ive heard they are being used for VIC-BMS/ORP runs and VIC-GRV runs

These would be nice, self-contained diagrams and as mentioned upthread, some Orpy drivers sign them

 

[pompeyfan]

They already have ASDO, as is used regularly, I’m not sure if network rail will need to upgrade the infrastructure though.

 

[Chiltern006]

These would be nice, self-contained diagrams and as mentioned upthread, some Orpy drivers sign them

that seems a lot more sensible, quicker introduction into service

 

[Class 466]

Can't use 10 cars on Vic - Orp services as they'll foul the junction at Brixton and Herne Hill. They're going on to London Bridge Metro Stuff where the need for additional capacity is greatest.

 

[ScotGG]

How many diagrams on the Dartford and Hayes line can become 12-car networkers using stock freed up by the 707s arrival?

None on Woolwich line or rounders from Woolwich line to Sidcup line it would seem (and in future when two other rounders are added on Eltham line to Woolwich line to link to Abbey Wood for Crossrail). And given CX issues what percentage are we talking about that can go to 12-car Networkers?

The only definites are Cannon Streets to Dartford and Gravesend? That also rules out Bexleyheath's Gravesend service as that goes from/to Victoria.

 

[Mikey C]

With the 707s arriving that will be far more 2car 466s than SE can actually use and they aren't fully PRM'd.
Soem 4car 465 could also be displaced but probably more than could be use to lengthen services all the possible Networker services to 12 car so some 465s being displaced is probably on the cards might help. I wouldn't expect 150car to leave...
The /2s and 466s have the worst reliability in the networker fleet

IF there's siding space, surely it would make sense to keep all the 465s, and just use them less intensively? Part of the reason they look so tired is the hard life they've had.