Confirmation of rolling stock changes at Southeastern, including 707s

[4-SUB 4732]

Given that Porterbrook said at the time of conversion that they were prepared to take the risk over the then-SWT franchise end, then unless they have been fleecing SWR since because they don't want them full term (if they are, well done!) then they haven't recouped the investment.


The 458/460 programme provided the best value to DfT for the Windsor Lines 10-car project (which also debunks your "over the odds" rental costs claim) - that is why they were chosen. Quite why you think they were to "use up" the 460s I don't know - the availability of the 460s was obviously why Porterbrook could offer the solution in the first place, and probably influenced the commercial terms.

334s do have a toilet, btw....

Not dreadfully sure if it was the best value. It was the quickest available creation of 10 car stock along with the 456s. How much longer would it have taken to build the, erm, 38 (?) 707s and get them in? The 458s made it before the first 707 did from memory. They have had a good run.

 

[Energy]

will these trains recieve the full blue livery (375) or the 465/466 livery?

I'd imagine just a vinyled logo on white or a vinyl metro livery at most.

Also not sure if anyone has mentioned yet, the owners of the 707s, Angel Trains, also own some of the 465s and 466s. Eversholt own the 97 465s Angel don't own.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'd imagine just a vinyled logo on white or a vinyl metro livery at most.

Also not sure if anyone has mentioned yet, the owners of the 707s, Angel Trains, also own some of the 465s and 466s. Eversholt own the 97 465s Angel don't own.

The better 465s are the 97 that Eversholt own. The Metro Cammell ones traditionally are less reliable.

 

[ComUtoR]

700s clear already (...)

The route cert I have for 700s only mention Class 700 specifically and none of the sub classes. Is it a matter of paperwork because the units are almost identical ?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The route cert I have for 700s only mention Class 700 specifically and none of the sub classes. Is it a matter of paperwork because the units are almost identical ?

Usually. When you approach Network Rail’s relevant department at MK they first check anything technically similar and in many cases they will just clear the same thing. If the kinetic envelope, measurements etc are all the same the only thing to check is power draw which these are less than a 700. Effectively, NR only clear something when they are asked (e.g. you get 700s cleared but they don’t then clear 707s and 717s).

 

[urpert]

The better 465s are the 97 that Eversholt own. The Metro Cammell ones traditionally are less reliable.

and more full of water.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

and more full of water.

Didn’t know that was public knowledge but most 466s offer that stunning water feature sound effect!

 

[prod_pep]

The better 465s are the 97 that Eversholt own. The Metro Cammell ones traditionally are less reliable.

The Metro-Cammell ones also make an irritating squeaking sound from under the floor when at speed, whereas the BREL/ABB ones don't.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Metro-Cammell ones also make an irritating squeaking sound from under the floor when at speed, whereas the BREL/ABB ones don't.

Never did work out what that was. I’m sure somebody knows.

 

[Domh245]

Not dreadfully sure if it was the best value. It was the quickest available creation of 10 car stock along with the 456s. How much longer would it have taken to build the, erm, 38 (?) 707s and get them in? The 458s made it before the first 707 did from memory. They have had a good run.

Seeing as the 707s are notorious for their high lease price, adding another 38 in won't be cheaper than the 458 project - not by a long shot. The 458s beat the 707s by a long shot - first 458 was in service late 2014 and last in March 2016 - first 707 wasn't delivered until December 16

 

[D365]

The better 465s are the 97 that Eversholt own. The Metro Cammell ones traditionally are less reliable.

Not to mention that Eversholt has spent some amount of money on their Networkers. As far as I can see, Angel Trains is vary rarely prone to putting money into any of their fleets.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Not to mention that Eversholt has spent some amount of money on their Networkers. As far as I can see, Angel Trains is vary rarely prone to putting money into any of their fleets.

Agreed. Admittedly there’s at least 10 years left in the Eversholt lot, with some investment they could get 93% daily service output as 30 x 12 car in future. A follow-on order of Desiro City stock to push the 376s out, 465/2 / 465/9 and 466 to scrap and then also get some extra vehicles into the 707s. Heavily 12-car railway with some 8-car units added in.

 

[urpert]

Agreed. Admittedly there’s at least 10 years left in the Eversholt lot, with some investment they could get 93% daily service output as 30 x 12 car in future. A follow-on order of Desiro City stock to push the 376s out, 465/2 / 465/9 and 466 to scrap and then also get some extra vehicles into the 707s. Heavily 12-car railway with some 8-car units added in.

That would be incredibly sensible and so will almost certainly not happen.

 

[hwl]

Seeing as the 707s are notorious for their high lease price, adding another 38 in won't be cheaper than the 458 project - not by a long shot. The 458s beat the 707s by a long shot - first 458 was in service late 2014 and last in March 2016 - first 707 wasn't delivered until December 16

Initial lease cost - Angel will be charging a lot less now...

The market has had some price discovery now!

 

[rdlover777]

Chatham mainline is 8, so is the Catford Loop.

Chatham Mainline south of Rochester can fit 12 car trains as i've seen a lot of 395s running in pairs through Chatham lately

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Chatham Mainline south of Rochester can fit 12 car trains as i've seen a lot of 395s running in pairs through Chatham lately

375 routes and not relevant to 465/376/707.

 

[rdlover777]

375 routes and not relevant to 465/376/707.

you say that, but i see 465 + 465 + 466 heading coast bound most days

 

[jopsuk]

Initial lease cost - Angel will be charging a lot less now...

The market has had some price discovery now!

Quite. The same is likely to be the case with other supposedly very expensive fleets off lease

 

[4-SUB 4732]

you say that, but i see 465 + 465 + 466 heading coast bound most days

Few diagrams on those Dover stoppers but easily converted to 375/377 in time.

 

[Mikey C]

The Greenwich/Woolwich services all run into Cannon Street, so other than the Woolwich Dockyard short platforms, aren't 10 car trains a bit of a waste?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Greenwich/Woolwich services all run into Cannon Street, so other than the Woolwich Dockyard short platforms, aren't 10 car trains a bit of a waste?

Not excessively. With suitable platform occupation you’d only realistically use one platform for Greenwich line stuff at Cannon and use 4/5/6 at Charing Cross.

 

[Mikey C]

Agreed. Admittedly there’s at least 10 years left in the Eversholt lot, with some investment they could get 93% daily service output as 30 x 12 car in future. A follow-on order of Desiro City stock to push the 376s out, 465/2 / 465/9 and 466 to scrap and then also get some extra vehicles into the 707s. Heavily 12-car railway with some 8-car units added in.

On the other hand as there are currently 147 465s and 36 376s, that's a massive order of trains so surely a replacement for that will be based on the best train/value for money, rather than a comparatively small number of 30 existing 707s?

Indeed if the franchise has been re-let as it was meant to, weren't Hitachi likely to win the order?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

On the other hand as there are currently 147 465s and 36 376s, that's a massive order of trains so surely a replacement for that will be based on the best train/value for money, rather than a comparatively small number of 30 existing 707s?

Indeed if the franchise has been re-let as it was meant to, weren't Hitachi likely to win the order?

I mean you get two choices. Replacing a proportion of the fleet (376s cascaded out and 465/2 465/9 and 466 scrapped) gives breathing space so the remaining 97 465/0s can be scrapped if the Crossrail extension comes which no doubt will free up an equivalent of 30 circuits if it goes to Rainham, Gravesend and Dartford at a reasonable frequency. Got to keep things in perspective.

 

[Energy]

weren't Hitachi likely to win the order?

Hitachi were suggested not sure how likely, Alstom were part of the bid for the TOC.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Hitachi were suggested not sure how likely, Alstom were part of the bid for the TOC.

All out the window now...

 

[43096]

Hitachi were suggested not sure how likely, Alstom were part of the bid for the TOC.

Alstom were partnered with Stagecoach.

 

[43096]

Initial lease cost - Angel will be charging a lot less now...

The market has had some price discovery now!

And any new order will be financed at current rates (interest rates all time low) so a rather different financial climate.

Parts of the market haven't woken up to the risk they face, though. There were some clenched backsides at some of the new entrants to the market when they heard that the nearly-new 707s were at risk. They seemed to be under the impression it was a risk-free game...

 

[brad465]

you say that, but i see 465 + 465 + 466 heading coast bound most days

Few diagrams on those Dover stoppers but easily converted to 375/377 in time.

Most days? In the summer period they were very prevalent on the Chatham mainline specials yes, but beyond that they were/are limited to the following I can recall:

- Dover Priory and Canterbury East services (stopper to Medway, semi-fast to Dover and vice-versa): 465/9+466 on some midweek services, lone 465 (although I have seen 2x before) on one of 5 sets on Saturdays. For Canterbury East the last 2 services of the day stops short at CBE, again 465/9+466, and one allocation on Sundays when engineering works actually allow any mainline services to run full length. There is also one CST-FAV 6 car peak working that is non-stop to Rochester.
- Sheerness two peak workings each way of 6 car, but otherwise everything else Networker based stops short at Rochester or Gillingham, while nothing regular is typically 10 car and/or goes along the Thanet coast.

Unless of course things have changed in the current climate that I haven't seen (I'm happy to be corrected if this is the case).

 

[D365]

Alstom were partnered with Stagecoach.

And worth pointing out that Alstom have since signed an agreement to purchase Bombardier Transportation, which includes the Derby facility and presumably the Aventra product line.

 

[hwl]

Parts of the market haven't woken up to the risk they face, though. There were some clenched backsides at some of the new entrants to the market when they heard that the nearly-new 707s were at risk. They seemed to be under the impression it was a risk-free game...

And the new entrants are the ones creating the risk!

One of the newer ones seem to get it, not so sure about the rest of the new entrants