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Confirmation of rolling stock changes at Southeastern, including 707s

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JonathanH

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Why on earth would 465 trailer vehicles be displaced? Nothing is being displaced at all.

There was some informed suggestion of a 165 rebuild programme using 465 trailers posted by 'Clarence Yard' in January on the wnxx forum. However, they would have to be identified as spare vehicles to be available and I think your posting is suggesting that they aren't.

Angel have done an assessment on the class 16x body shells and they are good for at least another ten years. The battery packs are supposed to be good for at least 8 years.

With Hy-Drive you can extend the Turbos by inserting class 465 trailers, when they finally become available and If the loadings required it. You could go up to 5 car with three powered 16x cars. Hy-Drive also allows you to take out all the 3+2 seating on the cl.166 fleet as you don’t need to have anything under the seats. It will also sort out the increasing problem networkwide with the noise from the Perkins engines.

Both Chiltern and GWR/FG are looking at this very seriously indeed. The potential is huge and it could all be done relatively quickly.

I think a 165 with class 465 trailers would look a little odd but at least they share some heritage.
 
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4-SUB 4732

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I would expect some 465 trailer vehicles to be displaced - there is a home for a small number as will become clearer in due course. Whether this would result in additional 466s being created by the 465 driving cars that are unaccounted for remains to be seen.
?!
 

Mikey C

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A very off topic suggestion, but if a few 465s donated a trailer to the 466s to create a 3 car unit, that would enable 11 car Networker (4+4+3) formations to be created, fitting into Charing Cross...
 

D365

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As I've said before (and with no disrespect intended to the author), Anonymous Widower often comes up with some very outlandish proposals. For reference, this is the article that AW is referring to.

However this discussion is completely off-topic, especially since there is no news about whether any of the Networkers will actually be displaced by the Class 707s.
 
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4-SUB 4732

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Just a quick one but I massively doubt it would be 465 trailers going into Turbos. 365s are the ones slated for freight work where they may be able to operate as 3s.
 

D365

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Just a quick one but I massively doubt it would be 465 trailers going into Turbos. 365s are the ones slated for freight work where they may be able to operate as 3s.

It’s not guaranteed now that Varmis will take them, but that’s a discussion for the thread linked above.
 

Surreyman

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Just a quick one but I massively doubt it would be 465 trailers going into Turbos. 365s are the ones slated for freight work where they may be able to operate as 3s.
May edition of Modern Railways (Out today) mentions possibility of 465 (or 365) trailers going into 165/166.
Nothing of course is certain but clearly this idea is being seriously considered.
 

4REP

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May edition of Modern Railways (Out today) mentions possibility of 465 (or 365) trailers going into 165/166.
Nothing of course is certain but clearly this idea is being seriously considered.
Can we end the discussion on networkers please this is a 707 discussion. The networkers are staying no reformation remarshalls scrapping etc. Southeastern want more trains and capacity-they have said so.
 

hwl

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Can we end the discussion on networkers please this is a 707 discussion. The networkers are staying no reformation remarshalls scrapping etc. Southeastern want more trains and capacity-they have said so.
The 707s will increase number of vehicle and capacity overall. That doesn't mean a very limited number of networkers won't be effectively lost.
If you look back to the previous thread SE franchise thread where 2 poster with inside knowledge have said some networkers will be mothballed e.g.


Bear in mind that SE have huge stabling and depot spaces issues already (e.g. 377s looked after by GTR) hence there is a big challenge to address that before the 707s arrive. Not utilising a very limited number of networkers and storing them would make some of the stabling issues a little easier.
 

D365

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Bear in mind that SE have huge stabling and depot spaces issues already (e.g. 377s looked after by GTR) hence there is a big challenge to address that before the 707s arrive. Not utilising a very limited number of networkers and storing them would make some of the stabling issues a little easier.

... However, that is a discussion best saved for the Speculative Ideas subform, until any further information is made public.

Until there is any news to the contrary, we should assume that the Class 707s are for additional capacity.
 

hwl

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... However, that is a discussion best saved for the Speculative Ideas subform, until any further information is made public.

Until there is any news to the contrary, we should assume that the Class 707s are for additional capacity.
They are for additional capacity, just not 100%...

I'm just rebutting others claims to the contrary many of which arise because of thread split and not looking in "speculative..." or the previous thread.
 

northernbelle

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As I've said before (and with no disrespect intended to the author), Anonymous Widower often comes up with some very outlandish proposals. For reference, this is the article that AW is referring to.

However this discussion is completely off-topic, especially since there is no news about whether any of the Networkers will actually be displaced by the Class 707s.
With respect, that link isn't the basis on which I made my remark. Time will tell but my understanding specifically relates to 465 trailers rather than 365s - presumably because the yield of non-panto TSO vehicles would be higher per unit.
 

Domh245

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With respect, that link isn't the basis on which I made my remark. Time will tell but my understanding specifically relates to 465 trailers rather than 365s - presumably because the yield of non-panto TSO vehicles would be higher per unit.

The main advantage of the 465s would be that they're owned by the same ROSCO rather than there being more of them, but that's getting off topic for this thread.
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks for the info, I obviously missed that one, I looked on google and couldn't find anything in the way of a link other than the Rail / Rail Advent stories
No problem, I was similarly cautious when the thread started, I suspect quite a few of us were...
 

CeeJ

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So with stock moves like this, how does the maintenance experience get transferred between SWR and Southeastern, will SE send staff to SWR depots ahead of time or will they have a few SWR/Siemens staff on loan at Slade Green?
 

norbitonflyer

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Many people comment on the seats but really they're okay for short journeys, which is exactly what the 707s are used for. If they were being used on Weymouths I'd understand.

707s run to Shepperton, Windsor, Addlestone and Guildford via Cobham - journeys of nearly an hour - more than an hour to Addlestone (I think they may have even made it to Reading). Such journeys take longer than to Winchester. These timings are the same as It's not just the seats themselves, but the trunking at the edge of the floor next to the sidewall seriously interferes with legroom.
 

ValleyLines142

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707s run to Shepperton, Windsor, Addlestone and Guildford via Cobham - journeys of nearly an hour - more than an hour to Addlestone (I think they may have even made it to Reading). Such journeys take longer than to Winchester. These timings are the same as It's not just the seats themselves, but the trunking at the edge of the floor next to the sidewall seriously interferes with legroom.

You could use that comparison in distance for many areas. Addlestone is 1 hour 10 on the direct via Hounslow or 40 minutes taking a fast service to Weybridge via Surbiton on a 450 and doubling back. Not that many people use the former unless they're not a regular commuter or aren't particularly in a rush (I certainly don't and I know Addlestone very well, having friends in Chertsey).

As for the trunking, being just shy of 6'4'' and very broad shouldered, I find it easier to pop whatever leg is closest to the inside on top of the trunking, which actually helps my knee. But I respect that everyone's different.
 

Flinn Reed

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I always thought that Southern would have been a more suitable destination for the 707's, with GTR already operating the similar 700s/717s. Could have been used on London metro routes to replace the 455s.

I wonder if the next operator of the Southeastern franchise might purchase some additional Desiro Citys to replace the 465s/466s to simplify the fleet?
 

43096

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707s run to Shepperton, Windsor, Addlestone and Guildford via Cobham - journeys of nearly an hour - more than an hour to Addlestone (I think they may have even made it to Reading). Such journeys take longer than to Winchester. These timings are the same as It's not just the seats themselves, but the trunking at the edge of the floor next to the sidewall seriously interferes with legroom.
They had a diagrammed daily trip to Reading, 1935 from Waterloo, return empty.
 

Doomotron

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I wonder if the next operator of the Southeastern franchise might purchase some additional Desiro Citys to replace the 465s/466s to simplify the fleet?
If I am right in saying, the most likely manufacturer for any new trains for Southeastern has always been Hitachi.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this is a Traction & Rolling Stock thread to discuss Class 707s confirmed to be going to Southeastern

The forum has plenty of spare capacity for additional threads to be created to discuss any other topic :)
 

hwl

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If I am right in saying, the most likely manufacturer for any new trains for Southeastern has always been Hitachi.
That was only due to the requirement for bidders to partner with a manufacturer (or plural) for rolling stick and signalling (inc TMS) particularly for the later due to DfT desire to experiment with PFI style sub-contracts for those elements.
The only sensible HS1 rolling stock option is for another batch from Hitachi (7-9 units).
The Hitachi cost for metro type units is higher per vehicle than Bombardier or Siemens (Bombardier being cheaper than Siemens in overall cost which is why they won Anglia, SWR and LNR). Bombardier losing Thameslink forced them to have a rethink about Aventra mk1 and have the design refresh leading to the "mk2" design actually built.
The Desiro City design was targeted at Thameslink bid requirements and things have moved on since then (much of the DfT thinking for that was done 12-13 years ago).

Hence like SWR the cheapest overall option may be to go for a uniform fleet of Aventras unless Siemens go for a refresh of Desiro City at which point they have less in common with the 707s.

The much previously discussed lack of hand holds in the vestibules (which gets them bad passenger standing density points scoring) and has no easy fix effectively excludes them from SE unless DfT relax their stance (unlikely).

SE are getting the 707s because:
a) they are available soon
b) Angel have got realistic on the lease costs
c) while not perfect* for metro use they are by far the best short term option to add capacity and improve dwell time performance.

*e.g. hand rail and seat spacing issues
 

Metal_gee_man

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As SE have been slow to put out a press release I asked them

Question: @Se_Railway A certain railway magazine has published a story about the introduction of the ex-@SW_Help Class 707s to suppliment/replace some of the class 465/466 networkers and add more carriages to 8 car routes, is this true & is there a press release

Reply:
Yes these will be coming our way, but unsure of any details as yet ^CH

Screenshot_20200424_221432.jpg
 

ComUtoR

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Realistically, what is the timetable for the first unit to be introduced.

701 introduction to SWR
707 lease to be released
Driver training
Timetable introduction.

Considering the May change will have already happened for the timetable December is the next change so the earliest is looking to be 8 months away. Add in Corona and I'm not holding out and reasonable introduction till at least 2021 :/
 

5920

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Not dreadfully sure if it was the best value. It was the quickest available creation of 10 car stock along with the 456s. How much longer would it have taken to build the, erm, 38 (?) 707s and get them in? The 458s made it before the first 707 did from memory. They have had a good run.

First 458/5 passenger traffic March 2014. First 707 passenger run July 2017
 
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