Connections from the North into Eurostar at Waterloo International

[Steve Harris]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #15 originally in this thread.

Strictly, none of those were disruption but planned diversion because of engineering works (not that that changes the point of the discussion.

Didn't there used to be (for a time) a HST timtabled service train from FGW land into Waterloo ? Primarily to try and tap into Eurostar trade (before E* moved to St Pan).

 

[drb61]

Didn't there used to be (for a time) a HST timtabled service train from FGW land into Waterloo ? Primarily to try and tap into Eurostar trade (before E* moved to St Pan).

Not a diversion as such, but there used to be a scheduled service for a Wales and West Class 158 into and out of Waterloo. I don't think it lasted many years (if that). Certainly an unusual service though.

There was an HST service from Edinburgh to Waterloo via the ECML that ran for a short while to connect with Eurostar - used it once in 1995 on a trip to Amsterdam! It was very lightly loaded and on the return trip it was terminated short at Newcastle and we were offered first class seats on a Kings Cross - Glasgow service to complete our journey! Not too surprised really that it was short lived!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There was an HST service from Edinburgh to Waterloo via the ECML that ran for a short while to connect with Eurostar - used it once in 1995 on a trip to Amsterdam! It was very lightly loaded and on the return trip it was terminated short at Newcastle and we were offered first class seats on a Kings Cross - Glasgow service to complete our journey! Not too surprised really that it was short lived!

You should award yourself a collector's badge for having actually travelled on a Eurostar connecting train.

Don't think "ordinary" inter city passengers were ever allowed on these little advertised services, as you were expected to have a through ticket to/from an overseas destination.

And no good attempting to purchase a ticket on the day if travelling from Waverley. The continental booking office at Edinburgh station apparently only opened for business some 30 minutes after the Waterloo train had departed for the day.

Only operated as part of some ministerial commitment (to MPs up North?) that the regions would be "directly connected" with the Channel Tunnel.

They were supposedly then going to be replaced by "Chunnel" trains continuing direct to destinations beyond London.

Don't think that ever happened, did it?!

 

[Steve Harris]

You should award yourself a collector's badge for having actually travelled on a Eurostar connecting train.

Don't think "ordinary" inter city passengers were ever allowed on these little advertised services, as you were expected to have a through ticket to/from an overseas destination.

And no good attempting to purchase a ticket on the day if travelling from Waverley. The continental booking office at Edinburgh station apparently only opened for business some 30 minutes after the Waterloo train had departed for the day.

Only operated as part of some ministerial commitment (to MPs up North?) that the regions would be "directly connected" with the Channel Tunnel.

They were supposedly then going to be replaced by "Chunnel" trains continuing direct to destinations beyond London.

Don't think that ever happened, did it?!

I travelled on the "Night Riveria" (many times) when it got moved from Paddington to Waterloo to connect with Eurostar and I can assure you, you didn't need (nor was expected to have) a through ticket to an overseas destination to use the service !!

And correct, it didn't happen.

The "North of London" sets/service never got used for their intended service (mainly because the government realised that NOL services couldn't compete with the airlines, hence why "Nighstar" coaches got built and sold off to a company in Canada). The sets did however get used on the GNER Yorkshire Rose services (London Kings Cross - York and LKX - Leeds) for a while.

 

[Bald Rick]

When Caledonian Sleepers divert from the WCML, I thought they use the ECML and NLL to reach Wembley and then reverse into Euston.
As opposed to using King's Cross as a terminal?

They use KX when the line south of Wembley is shut.

I travelled on the "Night Riveria" (many times) when it got moved from Paddington to Waterloo to connect with Eurostar and I can asure you, you didn't need (nor was expected to have) a through ticket to an overseas destination to use the service !!

The Night Riveria was a normal service train, diverted to Waterloo for Eurostar connections.

What @Mcr Warrior is referring to is services that were laid on specifically to connect to Eurostar and nothing else. There were 2 or 3 of these - one from Edinburgh, one up the WCML (Manchester via Birmingham?) and possibly another from Swansea. You couldn’t board these unless you had a Eurostar ticket. Although I don’t know how that was enforced.

These latter services were run in place of the through Eurostars from the ECML / WCML supposed to be provided by the shorter (just the 14 coaches) ‘North of London’ sets. What I can’t remember is whether this service wasn’t provided because the NoL sets were delivered late, or because the customs / border control couldn’t be sorted, or because it was realised the economics would make the Caley Sleeper look like a money spinner.

 

[Steve Harris]

Well, everyday is a school day !!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Believe that the short-lived Eurostar connecting services were briefly referred to as "Regional Eurostar".

All timetable slots for such services got binned around 1999.

If I rightly recall, there was a big sign outside Longsight depot near Manchester for quite some time after which continued to claim... "le Eurostar habite ici".

 

[Watershed]

If I rightly recall, there was a big sign outside Longsight depot near Manchester for quite some time after which continued to claim... "le Eurostar habite ici".

Actually Manchester International Depot (the other side of the line from Longsight). After sitting empty for more than a decade, it currently plays host to some 'international' trains - well, at least ones from abroad. Not for much longer.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They use KX when the line south of Wembley is shut.





The Night Riveria was a normal service train, diverted to Waterloo for Eurostar connections.

What @Mcr Warrior is referring to is services that were laid on specifically to connect to Eurostar and nothing else. There were 2 or 3 of these - one from Edinburgh, one up the WCML (Manchester via Birmingham?) and possibly another from Swansea. You couldn’t board these unless you had a Eurostar ticket. Although I don’t know how that was enforced.

These latter services were run in place of the through Eurostars from the ECML / WCML supposed to be provided Bynum the shorter ‘North of London’ sets. What I can’t remember is whether this service wasn’t provided because the NoL sets were delivered late, or because the customs / border control couldn’t be sorted, or because it was realised the economics would make the Caley Sleeper look like a money spinner.

Here was the Manchester / Edinburgh timetables

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s hardly surprising they weren’t popular. 10 hours Edinburgh to Paris, 8 hours Manchester to Paris. And more expensive than flying.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Here was the Manchester / Edinburgh timetables

What year were they from?

P.S. Presumably the Manchester "Eurostar" connecting trains were routed via Kensington Olympia? Which way did the ECML ones go?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What year were they from?

P.S. Presumably the Manchester "Eurostar" connecting trains were routed via Kensington Olympia? Which way did the ECML ones go?

Those were taken from the Summer 1995 GBTT

 

[Bald Rick]

What year were they from?

P.S. Presumably the Manchester "Eurostar" connecting trains were routed via Kensington Olympia? Which way did the ECML ones go?

ECML were all the way to London, up the KX incline, North London Line via Hampstead to Willesden. Then West London Line to Latchmere. It must have taken the best part of an hour to get from Finsbury
Park to Waterloo.

 

[yorksrob]

ECML were all the way to London, up the KX incline, North London Line via Hampstead to Willesden. Then West London Line to Latchmere. It must have taken the best part of an hour to get from Finsbury
Park to Waterloo.

Done that movement many times on railtours. An hour seems about right.

 

[CW2]

I did the 13:45 Waterloo - Edinburgh in October 1995, alighting at Peterborough. Route as described above. Of note I believe the Sheepcote Lane curve was constructed specifically for the Regional Eurostar / Nightstar services*, so was new track for me - as indeed was the Kings Cross Incline. HST 43097 + 43068.

The phrase "Regional Eurostar" was reserved specifically for the planned through services to be operated by the class 373/3 Eurostars, and NOT these connecting regional HST services.

* Edit: Also of course for ECS Eurostars from Old Oak Common depot to / from Waterloo.

 

[Ianno87]

I did the 13:45 Waterloo - Edinburgh in October 1995, alighting at Peterborough. Route as described above. Of note I believe the Sheepcote Lane curve was constructed specifically for the Regional Eurostar / Nightstar services*, so was new track for me - as indeed was the Kings Cross Incline. HST 43097 + 43068.

The phrase "Regional Eurostar" was reserved specifically for the planned through services to be operated by the class 373/3 Eurostars, and NOT these connecting regional HST services.

* Edit: Also of course for ECS Eurostars from Old Oak Common depot to / from Waterloo.

Presumably ECS moves were the main reason for reinstatement of the curve, and it just happened to be useful for the HST connecting services.

Regional Eurostars themselves would not have used the curve, and would have gone direct via Longhedge Jn to Factory Jn to avoid Waterloo.

 

[30907]

What @Mcr Warrior is referring to is services that were laid on specifically to connect to Eurostar and nothing else. There were 2 or 3 of these - one from Edinburgh, one up the WCML (Manchester via Birmingham?) and possibly another from Swansea. You couldn’t board these unless you had a Eurostar ticket. Although I don’t know how that was enforced.

There was a Swansea service, but ISTR it was a class 158 and not restricted to international travellers, and compensated for the non-existent Nightstars. By a devious process it evolved into the SW Waterloo-Bristol route!

 

[CW2]

During a bit of tidying, I came across a carriage label for the aforementioned HST services to / from Waterloo. They were marketed as "Eurostar Link" with no intermediate stops shown, and the destination "London Waterloo for Paris and Brussels".

 

[Mcr Warrior]

During a bit of tidying, I came across a carriage label for the aforementioned HST services to / from Waterloo. They were marketed as "Eurostar Link" with no intermediate stops shown, and the destination "London Waterloo for Paris and Brussels".

I think that makes sense as these services were never really intended for passengers making journeys between intermediate stations, so if you boarded at say Edinburgh for Waterloo, where the train then subsequently called at before eventually arriving at Waterloo was largely irrelevant.

Slightly surprised therefore that the booked stops in the timetable extract (post #9) weren't shown as pick up only (southbound) or set down only (northbound).

 

[dazzler]

What year were they from?

P.S. Presumably the Manchester "Eurostar" connecting trains were routed via Kensington Olympia? Which way did the ECML ones go?

The Manchester trains did indeed go via Kensington Olympia, I used it once from New Street in about 1995 or 1996 on the way to southern France and Italy. Up the WCML to Willesden, then right onto the West London Line.
I can't remember whether the HST was a 2+7 or 2+8 set, although the number of passengers on board would have still let us have a carriage each anyway!

 

[Gloster]

It I remember correctly, the Wales & West service was supposed to be non-stop from Warminster to Waterloo. On one occasion it terminated at Salisbury and the passengers were rather left to sort things out for themselves.

 

[Jimini]

I can remember an Alphaline Wales & West service that used to run from Maesteg to Waterloo via Reading. Not sure if that was connected to the E* timetables / schedules being discussed above though TBH.

 

[30907]

I can remember an Alphaline Wales & West service that used to run from Maesteg to Waterloo via Reading. Not sure if that was connected to the E* timetables / schedules being discussed above though TBH.

It was and it wasn't. The timetable and route history of all those Alphaline services is exceedingly complicated, so I won't try without digging out a box of GBTTs.

 

[Dr Hoo]

ECML were all the way to London, up the KX incline, North London Line via Hampstead to Willesden. Then West London Line to Latchmere. It must have taken the best part of an hour to get from Finsbury
Park to Waterloo.

On the one occasion that I used it (having blagged my way onto the train during a crew change at Finsbury Park) we ran via the KX incline, Primrose Hill, ladder across the WCML on the flat, then via South West Sidings to Acton Wells and the reinstated curve at Latchmere.

I.e. not via Hamstead. (Wasn't there a restriction on HSTs through the tunnel or something?)

 

[Bald Rick]

On the one occasion that I used it (having blagged my way onto the train during a crew change at Finsbury Park) we ran via the KX incline, Primrose Hill, ladder across the WCML on the flat, then via South West Sidings to Acton Wells and the reinstated curve at Latchmere.

I.e. not via Hamstead. (Wasn't there a restriction on HSTs through the tunnel or something?)

Oh gosh you might be right with that routeing, I stand corrected. I think the gauging issue is more likely to have been round the curve from Camden Road to Kentish Town on the viaduct. Hampstead Tunnel was cleared for eurostars and (later) W10, so I think Mark 3s would have been ok. They are clear now (although oddly HST Power Cars aren’t. They’re not clear via Primrose Hill either!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For a few years in the late 90s, the intended NoL Eurostar service timetable was in the GBTT on an "expected to start during the currency of this timetable" basis.
Testing with NoL sets on the WCML from Manchester reached Bletchley (there were signalling interference issues further south).
Once cancelled, it took a decade or more to remove the signage at Crewe to the "International Lounge" on P6 - never opened to the public.

Along the way, the NLL was (re-) electrified with OHLE for the ECML NoL service that similarly never started.
Then there were the 92s and upgraded 37s which were never needed for the night services.

 

[43096]

The Manchester trains did indeed go via Kensington Olympia, I used it once from New Street in about 1995 or 1996 on the way to southern France and Italy. Up the WCML to Willesden, then right onto the West London Line.
I can't remember whether the HST was a 2+7 or 2+8 set, although the number of passengers on board would have still let us have a carriage each anyway!

They were planned for 2+7 sets from the XC fleet.

 

[Ianno87]

They were planned for 2+7 sets from the XC fleet.

I notice the timings shown upthread have the Manchester arrival forming the Edinburgh departure and vice-versa, presumably to cycle the set to/from Craigentinny.

 

[flymo]

For a few years in the late 90s, the intended NoL Eurostar service timetable was in the GBTT on an "expected to start during the currency of this timetable" basis.
Testing with NoL sets on the WCML from Manchester reached Bletchley (there were signalling interference issues further south).
Once cancelled, it took a decade or more to remove the signage at Crewe to the "International Lounge" on P6 - never opened to the public.

Indeed they were, please see below.

(image shows a Eurostar timetable for through services from Scotland and Manchester to Paris)

 

[dazzler]

They were planned for 2+7 sets from the XC fleet.

Many thanks, at this distance in time my memory of the service is somewhat blurred!