Connectivity Challenges with Digital Railcard

[800Travel]

I'm intrigued by the argument the advantage of a digital railcard is that it can be be held on multiple devices. How many different devices (each with a point of failure if the battery runs out) would a passenger take on their journey? One, in nearly all cases.

But a physical piece of plastic, in a wallet or whatever, has a 100% guaranteed success rate of being produced on demand and being accepted. I'm with Brissie Girl on this.

I generally travel with my phone and laptop, but as discussed below I think the railcard can only be shown on the phone. Personally, given they have a photo on them, I fail to see why RDG cannot allow us to have the railcard on devices and also a plastic version. I do think that they should also release a laptop version of the app or an option to download/print the railcard as a PDF (like for e-tickets). I get this would require some financial outlay to implement, but it seems worth it. It's not very nice to have a system which, as MrJeeves has outlined, can land you with a criminal record for forgetting your railcard. There should be multiple ways to produce it.

Usually two phones (I have a passion for mobile networks, hence one SIM with each network in two dual SIM phones) and a power bank (specifically my 96Wh Anker one), and usually a 100W power adapter for myself and friends I'm with.

Not too uncommon for me to sling my small XPS 13 into the backpack too as it's only just over a kilo which is nothing on my back and lets me be productive wherever I'm going.

Can you get the railcard on your laptop though? I was under the impression it cannot be put on MacBooks, so wondering if this varies for different laptop brands

(For Mods - RDG = Rail Delivery Group)

 

[FenMan]

Usually two phones (I have a passion for mobile networks, hence one SIM with each network in two dual SIM phones) and a power bank (specifically my 96Wh Anker one), and usually a 100W power adapter for myself and friends I'm with.

Not too uncommon for me to sling my small XPS 13 into the backpack too as it's only just over a kilo which is nothing on my back and lets me be productive wherever I'm going.

So you usually carry two phones, a power bank, a 100W power adaptor and, sometimes, a small XPS 13 when travelling on a train, while sometimes forgetting to take your house keys.

Clearly, carrying a single piece of plastic to evidence entitlement to reduced rate travel is not for you.

 

[MrJeeves]

Can you get the railcard on your laptop though?

Nah, just thought I'd add to the conversation with it. I suppose it's technically possible with the Android Emulator.

So you usually carry two phones, a power bank, a 100W power adaptor and, sometimes, a small XPS 13 when travelling on a train, while sometimes forgetting to take your house keys.

Yep... Typically I forget the keys when they've been left in my bag and I go out without it, or when I've taken them out and forgot to put them back in.

Clearly, carrying a single piece of plastic to evidence entitlement to reduced rate travel is not for you.

Indeed. Much rather stick it on one of my redundant devices and call it a day.

 

[Joe Paxton]

This whole thread makes me wonder why we needed to replace a perfectly simple and usable piece of plastic card with a system that is expensive and complex and still has disadvantages that would cost millions to address.

I make sure my card is in my wallet when I travel - I show it to the inspector on the train when my ticket is asked for. I don’t need to faff around unlocking my phone, loading the app, making sure I have charge, or data, and the inspector can see at a glance that it is valid. Simples!

I bought a Trip.com Digital Railcard for the simple reason that they were offering it at discount of a third off the normal price (and indeed they still are).

I bought it fully aware that their Digital Railcard implementation was likely flakey, as indeed it is. As a result I generally wouldn't recommend it, and would actively discourage it to anyone whom I reckon might find Trip.com's unreliable implementation (or indeed just their blingy, fruit-machine-esque app in general) annoying or cumbersome.

Previously I had a Digital Railcard through the Trainline, which worked fine - again they were running an offer so I paid a discounted price. Prior to that I had plastic Railcards, which were good as they can survive the abuse of being kept in a wallet for a year (or three)... thermal printed thin card doesn't appreciate such treatment that much!

 

[AM9]

It's not very nice to have a system which, as MrJeeves has outlined, can land you with a criminal record for forgetting your railcard.

Bit of hyperbole there. Do you have any evidence thatforgetting your railcard has got anybody a criminal record. I'm referring to a correctly issued and in-date railcard with tickets that are issued in compliance with it, i.e. not a 'forgotten that it was out of date' issue, or got a wrong type of ticket for the railcard 'genuine mistake'.
If you forget to carry your railcard, you can buy a new ticket and get a refund on application later, no criminal record involved. This thread is about connectivity challenges which are never an issue with a plastic railcard (26-30 excepted). Smartphones, wonderful as they are are subject not only to the laws of physics in reception terms, they also rely on their owners ensuring that the life blood of their wonder toy (i.e. the energy in the battery) being adequate, which it seems takes a bit of serious organising for some.
If you want to go down the 'I live my life on my smartphone' route, then you are soley responsible for taking all reasonable steps to ensure that said device is working when needed.

 

[800Travel]

Bit of hyperbole there. Do you have any evidence thatforgetting your railcard has got anybody a criminal record. I'm referring to a correctly issued and in-date railcard with tickets that are issued in compliance with it, i.e. not a 'forgotten that it was out of date' issue, or got a wrong type of ticket for the railcard 'genuine mistake'.
If you forget to carry your railcard, you can buy a new ticket and get a refund on application later, no criminal record involved. This thread is about connectivity challenges which are never an issue with a plastic railcard (26-30 excepted). Smartphones, wonderful as they are are subject not only to the laws of physics in reception terms, they also rely on their owners ensuring that the life blood of their wonder toy (i.e. the energy in the battery) being adequate, which it seems takes a bit of serious organising for some.
If you want to go down the 'I live my life on my smartphone' route, then you are soley responsible for taking all reasonable steps to ensure that said device is working when needed.

It is unfortunate the ‘buy new ticket and get a refund on application later’ is only applicable to one instance per year though.

There is a route to a penalty fare however:

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare.

Penalty fares | On Board | FAQs | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

However, if your Penalty Fare Notice remains unpaid and your case is transferred over to our Prosecutions department you could be prosecuted under criminal law, which could lead to a criminal record.

In short, if you forget your railcard you may be issued a penalty fare notice (PFN). If this is your first time, you can appeal (likely successfully) but if not you will be liable for the penalty fare. If you don’t pay, you could be prosecuted which may result in a criminal record. Those who comply with the TOCs request and pay the PFN would likely avoid prosecution. Those who feel the situation is unfair as they hold a railcard (but have already forgotten it once this year) may be inclined not to pay, which could then lead to prosecution and a criminal record.

Q.E.D

 

[fandroid]

In short, if you forget your railcard you may be issued a penalty fare notice (PFN). If this is your first time, you can appeal (likely successfully) but if not you will be liable for the penalty fare. If you don’t pay, you could be prosecuted which may result in a criminal record. Those who comply with the TOCs request and pay the PFN would likely avoid prosecution. Those who feel the situation is unfair as they hold a railcard (but have already forgotten it once this year) may be inclined not to pay, which could then lead to prosecution and a criminal record.

Q.E.D

Is that "you may be subject to a Penalty Fare" advice limited to Southeastern? I appreciate that some companies don't do Penalty Fares at all, but it would be comforting to know that a Penalty Fare would be the default for the serially forgetful Railcard holder, as opposed money demanded under threat of prosecution.


As a (boring) advocate of smartcards, I would be in favour of loading Railcards onto ITSO smartcards. After all my old-fogey bus pass is held on one. It would after all save the sellers the bother of packing and postage as online loading works quite happily for tickets.

 

[Brissle Girl]

In short, if you forget your railcard you may be issued a penalty fare notice (PFN). If this is your first time, you can appeal (likely successfully) but if not you will be liable for the penalty fare. If you don’t pay, you could be prosecuted which may result in a criminal record. Those who comply with the TOCs request and pay the PFN would likely avoid prosecution. Those who feel the situation is unfair as they hold a railcard (but have already forgotten it once this year) may be inclined not to pay, which could then lead to prosecution and a criminal record.

Q.E.D

The railcard is an integral part of your ticket. No railcard, no valid ticket. How many times a year do you think someone should be allowed to go through the process of forgetting it and then either having a penalty fare refunded or the cost of a new ticket?

Incidentally, the “once a year” guidance also exists for season tickets, where again, if you forget it you don’t have a valid ticket.

As for the last paragraph quoted, yes, if you fail to engage with the process you may end up getting a criminal record. Do you think the railway should just shrug its shoulders and say “ oh well then” if people don’t pay the penalty fare. That would completely undermine the whole basis of the system and lead to people evading fares on a much wider basis. If that’s what your aim is, fine.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

How many different devices (each with a point of failure if the battery runs out) would a passenger take on their journey? One, in nearly all cases

I've been using an old phone (no SIM card, but can connect to WiFi) for my season ticket the past few months, and once I have a 16-25 being able to show both tickets and railcards at once is a good advantage to have.

 

[AlterEgo]

Clearly, carrying a single piece of plastic to evidence entitlement to reduced rate travel is not for you.

That is why digital solutions exist.

I have lost one paper ticket in my life; a London Travelcard. I had to go all the way to Stonebridge Park and exit the barrierless station there, and then buy another ticket, to avoid being Penalty Fared or prosecuted (prospects I could ill-afford back then).

I have not lost or had fail a single e-ticket.

 

[Malaxa]

I have lost one paper ticket in my life;

I have not lost or had fail a single e-ticket.

When in "your life" did you start using e-tickets?

 

[rs101]

This whole thread makes me wonder why we needed to replace a perfectly simple and usable piece of plastic card with a system that is expensive and complex and still has disadvantages that would cost millions to address.

I make sure my card is in my wallet when I travel - I show it to the inspector on the train when my ticket is asked for. I don’t need to faff around unlocking my phone, loading the app, making sure I have charge, or data, and the inspector can see at a glance that it is valid. Simples!

When I need to renew my Network Railcard (usually the day before I'm planning to go somewhere on the train and realise it's expired!), I can do it immediately online.

The other option would be to either:-
1. Apply online and wait a week for it to arrive.
2. Go to a manned station and renew it. That's either a 30 minute drive to Colchester and paying to park, or chancing it and driving 15 minutes to Manningtree in the hope the 1 member of staff on duty is free and able to sell it, between dispatching trains and helping other passengers.

If I'm using the train, it's usually to go to London, either for a concert/show (where I use an e-ticket to get in, 99% of the time) or for the Eurostar or an airport, where I use an app on my mobile to board. So using an app for the Railcard really isn't a major drama.

Yes, I carry a power bank to keep my phone topped up, or charge it from the USB sockets on the train.. I also have a wallet with cards and cash, but can't remember the last time I used that in London - use the phone or watch for everything as it's much more convenient.

When in "your life" did you start using e-tickets?

I've been using e-tickets whenever possible for the last few years, but have to have paper for some trips (Essex to Heathrow, for example). I've had more problems with paper tickets in that time, despite using them far less than e-tickets.

 

[800Travel]

Is that "you may be subject to a Penalty Fare" advice limited to Southeastern? I appreciate that some companies don't do Penalty Fares at all, but it would be comforting to know that a Penalty Fare would be the default for the serially forgetful Railcard holder, as opposed money demanded under threat of prosecution.


As a (boring) advocate of smartcards, I would be in favour of loading Railcards onto ITSO smartcards. After all my old-fogey bus pass is held on one. It would after all save the sellers the bother of packing and postage as online loading works quite happily for tickets.

The railcard site states you may be subject to penalty fare. Don’t know which TOCs it is limited too.

Southeastern site was merely my example for penalty fare resulting in prosecution. Other TOCs probably take that route too if it remains unpaid.

The railcard is an integral part of your ticket. No railcard, no valid ticket. How many times a year do you think someone should be allowed to go through the process of forgetting it and then either having a penalty fare refunded or the cost of a new ticket?

Incidentally, the “once a year” guidance also exists for season tickets, where again, if you forget it you don’t have a valid ticket.

As for the last paragraph quoted, yes, if you fail to engage with the process you may end up getting a criminal record. Do you think the railway should just shrug its shoulders and say “ oh well then” if people don’t pay the penalty fare. That would completely undermine the whole basis of the system and lead to people evading fares on a much wider basis. If that’s what your aim is, fine.

I think as long as it is a genuine case of forgotten (not invalid etc.), then the TOCs should be flexible. If they find it is happening too often, they should say effectively this is your last time being let off. Next time you’ll have the PFN/new fare cost etc.

I agree that, for purposes of valid prosecution, it is important to ensure people follow the rules. However I’m saying it seems unfair to charge people who have only made a mistake by not having their railcard with them as long as they do own one. This is because it’s not really reasonable to prosecute or give a penalty fare to someone who has not cost the railway anything. At the end of the day, yes they may not have a piece of plastic showing their entitlement or be able to load the app on their phone due to signal/battery etc. but I think PFNs and prosecution should be reserved for the more serious cases. Such as no railcard, no ticket at all, potentially expired railcard etc. Chances are, anyone with a railcard is a customer who pays the correct fare and uses rail often. PFNs and Prosecutions in these cases are only going to make people dislike the railway further.

In this, we also must consider customers who have vulnerabilities which cause them to become forgetful. Some individuals may repeatedly forgot their railcard through no deliberate malice, rather they aren’t ‘wired’ to remember it or to remember to charge their phone each evening. I know an argument would be that a railcard isn’t for them, but that wouldn’t be particularly inclusive.

So in short, my ‘aim’ isn’t to increase fare evasion. Rather have the TOCs be more accepting of genuine mistakes that have ‘no cost’ (I.e. customer already paid for railcard and railcard discounted fare). Especially in cases where the customer has vulnerabilities or is elderly.

 

[AlterEgo]

When in "your life" did you start using e-tickets?

I've been using e-tickets by default since they were introduced in pretty much every industry - the rail industry was rather late, but I estimate I've used the same number of railway e-tickets as I have paper ones, as my frequency of travel has increased a huge amount since I was, say, 21!

Yesterday I had to make a fairly simple trip with a friend, and there were ten paper coupons for that (btw, Trainsplit, I will send some feedback re: a flow which shouldn't be paper ticket only!). I couldn't send them the tickets in advance - I could if they were a Wallet pass and have done before - so they had to ask to be let through the barrier. They are also annoying to organise in my wallet.

Incidentally my friend *prefers* paper tickets but none of us are perfect are we?

 

[Brissle Girl]

So in short, my ‘aim’ isn’t to increase fare evasion. Rather have the TOCs be more accepting of genuine mistakes that have ‘no cost’ (I.e. customer already paid for railcard and railcard discounted fare). Especially in cases where the customer has vulnerabilities or is elderly.

But of course there is an administrative cost every time someone forgets a railcard and has to go through the process of being reported, and then evidencing said railcard. The first time it happens people are clearly told that you get one chance and you have used it - next time (within a year) will be more serious. I dont think that is at all unreasonable.

How many times do you think it would be reasonable for the rail industry to go through this process before saying “ enough’s enough)?

 

[Richardr]

This whole thread makes me wonder why we needed to replace a perfectly simple and usable piece of plastic card with a system that is expensive and complex and still has disadvantages that would cost millions to address.

I make sure my card is in my wallet when I travel - I show it to the inspector on the train when my ticket is asked for. I don’t need to faff around unlocking my phone, loading the app, making sure I have charge, or data, and the inspector can see at a glance that it is valid. Simples!

and yet people still manage to leave them at home.

Just looking at my phone, I have a Clubcard, M&S Card, Nectar Card, Starbucks card, Costa Card, Pret Card, and Arsenal season ticket on it in addition to a railcard. Much more convenient not to have to carry all of those around, or remember which combination to put in the wallet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

and yet people still manage to leave them at home.

Just looking at my phone, I have a Clubcard, M&S Card, Nectar Card, Starbucks card, Costa Card, Pret Card, and Arsenal season ticket on it in addition to a railcard. Much more convenient not to have to carry all of those around, or remember which combination to put in the wallet.

Why would you not just keep them all in a wallet?

I am increasingly going out with just my phone now, though, for local things (risky to go to London without a physical payment card of course!)

 

[Haywain]

Why would you not just keep them all in a wallet?

Because it makes for a bulky wallet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it makes for a bulky wallet?

It doesn't really. Unless you're a skinny jeans wearer, but those have gone out of fashion now, have they not?

What bulks a wallet is cash (specifically coinage), not a few cards.

 

[Haywain]

It doesn't really. Unless you're a skinny jeans wearer, but those have gone out of fashion now, have they not?

What bulks a wallet is cash (specifically coinage), not a few cards.

Such things are a matter of personal preference and opinion.

 

[OscarH]

Such things are a matter of personal preference and opinion.

I feel like that could sum up a lot of this thread! Different fulfillment methods work for different people, neither is "good" or "bad" generally

 

[superkopite]

Given this situation, I am seeking guidance on my options for handling such scenarios in the future as it's a waste of time for myself and the ticketer.

Ultimately, isn't the answer to this question that the person inspecting the Railcard has to wait until a data signal is available to display it? Trip.com have been accredited to sell Railcards and as such RDG have decided that their implementation of it is satisfactory. If that means that the guard has to wait or come back to view the railcard as RDG has not mandated offline storage, so be it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel like that could sum up a lot of this thread! Different fulfillment methods work for different people, neither is "good" or "bad" generally

Bingo. It doesn't really make sense to be arguing against either choice (other than that trip.com's implementation is clearly severely lacking).

 

[AM9]

Bingo. It doesn't really make sense to be arguing against either choice (other than that trip.com's implementation is clearly severely lacking).

That's fine, but for those continually complaining that digital railcards are bad and might cause issues with online access in remote locations when there's already a solution* in the form of a plastic railcard that will never suffer those failures, is pointless. If the reason for not fixing the problem by carrying a reliable railcard is that the sheer size of a 0.76mm thick piece of plastic is too bulky for a 'fashionable' cut of clothes, then those saver seeking passengers need to reassess their priorities.
*26-30 excepted of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's fine, but for those continually complaining that digital railcards are bad and might cause issues with online access in remote locations when there's already a solution* in the form of a plastic railcard that will never suffer those failures, is pointless. If the reason for not fixing the problem by carrying a reliable railcard is that the sheer size of a 0.76mm thick piece of plastic is too bulky for a 'fashionable' cut of clothes, then those saver seeking passengers need to reassess their priorities.
*26-30 excepted of course.

I think it's valid to complain about bad implementations, yes, even if the only mitigation the user can reasonably take for now is a plastic Railcard.

The official app is pretty rubbish but trip.com's seems awful, surprised it was accredited.

 

[OscarH]

I think it's valid to complain about bad implementations, yes, even if the only mitigation the user can reasonably take for now is a plastic Railcard.

The official app is pretty rubbish but trip.com's seems awful, surprised it was accredited.

Indeed, Trip.com's abomination and the unreliable official app aren't the only digital implementations. Some companies did put effort into making sure it can be accessed correctly offline and don't plan on leaving the app entirely broken with no decent communication for several days.

 

[talldave]

I think it's valid to complain about bad implementations, yes, even if the only mitigation the user can reasonably take for now is a plastic Railcard.

The official app is pretty rubbish but trip.com's seems awful, surprised it was accredited.

As I've said before, the accreditation regime isn't fit for purpose then. But it's the rail industry and "we've always done it that way". Don't expect change any time soon.

I guess industry management swan around the network on free passes so have absolutely no understanding of the ticketing/railcard frustration they impose on their customers?

 

[Adam Williams]

As I've said before, the accreditation regime isn't fit for purpose then. But it's the rail industry and "we've always done it that way". Don't expect change any time soon.

Frankly, RDG's accreditation team are probably understaffed for the workload they have and can only look at a snapshot of an implementation at the point of (re-)accreditation. They're reliant on retailers and other industry participants talking to them if they're planning on rewriting their app or otherwise making major changes.

Yes, accred should - in an ideal world - ensure that all implementations get the basics right. But the reality is that not all retailers/suppliers are equal and sometimes it really is worth thinking long and hard about who you decide to buy tickets and other products that you actually might need to rely on (like railcards) from, rather than chasing the latest special offers.

 

[Mike395]

But the reality is that not all retailers/suppliers are equal and sometimes it really is worth thinking long and hard about who you decide to buy tickets and other products from that you actually might need to rely on (like railcards) from, rather than chasing the latest special offers.

Exactly this - even if trip.com reduced their railcards to a fiver, I'd not bother and stick to one from a retailer I trust. Way too much risk that I'll be caught out unable to show it.

 

[Hadders]

Exactly this - even if trip.com reduced their railcards to a fiver, I'd not bother and stick to one from a retailer I trust. Way too much risk that I'll be caught out unable to show it.

I agree with this. A few months back I needed a Two Together Railcard at short notice. I’ve generally been sceptical of digital railcards due to the negative feedback on here.

I took the plunge and ordered a railcard through the Trainsplit app. The whole process was very simple indeed, I had my railcard in the app less than 60 seconds after starting the purchase process.

Also, the railcard doesn’t require a continuous internet connection. It seems to only need to connect to the system every few days. Also, I know Trainsplit’s customer service is top notch, and they would quickly deal with an issue. The same probably couldn’t be said for other retailers…