Construction progress: TPE 350/4

[snail]

Signs up saying the Lancaster service (5:15 Man Pic) will no longer call at Bolton and Chorley from next week so that looks like a service switching to election traction.
Replacement Northern service will start from Manchester Oxford Road at a similar time for Bolton line users.

No, the replacement is what used to be the Windermere portion of the 1715. It's still TPE, starting from Oxford Rd at 1713 but keeping the same timings from Preston.

Looking at the diagrams in richardio123's post, is the Friday 1715 (1700 from MIA) really going to be a single 185? Even running non-stop to Preston I can still see it being packed.

 

[Philip]

No, the replacement is what used to be the Windermere portion of the 1715. It's still TPE, starting from Oxford Rd at 1713 but keeping the same timings from Preston.

Looking at the diagrams in richardio123's post, is the Friday 1715 (1700 from MIA) really going to be a single 185? Even running non-stop to Preston I can still see it being packed.

Think I remember it being said on here those diagrams listed were just temporary while the new stock is being rolled out. From May on Fridays I reckon the 16:00 and 17:00 departures from the Airport will both be formed of 2 x 350s each with possibly the 15:00 formed of 2 x 185s. In the May 14 timetable draft published a year or so ago it had the 17:13 service down as a Barrow service starting from Piccadilly at 17:11. Wonder why they're starting it from Oxford Road now if the capacity was there to start it from Piccadilly in the draft timetable? Also the 19:00 and 22:00 departures from the Airport to Barrow will continue to work via Bolton from May.

 

[snail]

In the May 14 timetable draft published a year or so ago it had the 17:13 service down as a Barrow service starting from Piccadilly at 17:11. Wonder why they're starting it from Oxford Road now if the capacity was there to start it from Piccadilly in the draft timetable? Also the 19:00 and 22:00 departures from the Airport to Barrow will continue to work via Bolton from May.

Looking at Open Train Times the 1713 is leaving MIA as ECS at 1626, arr Oxford Rd P1 1643. So the logical assumption is that there is no path to leave the Airport at a reasonable time to be able to wait outside Piccadilly or arrive there for 1711.

It makes sense for the Barrow services to stay unchanged as they have to be operated by 185s.

 

[Thomas6187]

Only 350405 has been allocated out today, on the 05:58 off Manchester Airport

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Only 350405 has been allocated out today, on the 05:58 off Manchester Airport

I believe there have been some "stabling issues" which meant some 185s were running on 350 diagrams.

 

[All Line Rover]

Are there any pictures of the First Class compartment? I'm interested to see how it compares to LM's 350/1s. With the 350/1s now being used on fast services between London and Rugby/Nuneaton/Tamworth/Lichfield, 2+2 First Class seating does seem rather inadequate (albeit the journey length is not approximately 3 hours and the fares are cheaper than TPE).

 

[Blindtraveler]

anybody know what the 12:00 or the abouts off the airport to Edinburgh (Mon-Fri) should be booked? A 350 would be nice!

 

[Thomas6187]

350404 will be on the 0900/1700 off Manchester Airport today, and 350405 the same as yesterday

 

[Solent&Wessex]

anybody know what the 12:00 or the abouts off the airport to Edinburgh (Mon-Fri) should be booked? A 350 would be nice!

Booked to be 1 x 350 FSX and 2 x 350 FO. Believe it was a 185 yesterday. Today it should be 350403.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Booked to be 1 x 350 FSX and 2 x 350 FO. Believe it was a 185 yesterday. Today it should be 350403.

It was indeed 403. Very nice too.
Not all that full from MAN, about 30 off/on at Wigan.

 

[samj]

Which services are confirmed for 350s now since the change on the 10/02? Are they specific or does it vary from day to day? Many thanks in advance

 

[Polarbear]

Are there any pictures of the First Class compartment? I'm interested to see how it compares to LM's 350/1s. With the 350/1s now being used on fast services between London and Rugby/Nuneaton/Tamworth/Lichfield, 2+2 First Class seating does seem rather inadequate (albeit the journey length is not approximately 3 hours and the fares are cheaper than TPE).

I can't look for pictures on line at the moment as I'm at work. However, the
1st class layout on the 350/4's is 2+1 comprising of 19 seats & looks rather nice IMO.

An article I read about these units suggested that when they move to LM (which they're expected to once TPE or it's sucessor) orders new units, the layout may be modified to a 2+2 configuration. Only time will tell I suppose?

 

[harz99]

Booked to be 1 x 350 FSX and 2 x 350 FO. Believe it was a 185 yesterday. Today it should be 350403.

Was 405 and 406 today, boarded at CAR with train running 8 late which turned into 15 late by the time we had been held to allow a late running Virgin GLC service to overtake via platform 1.

No seat reservations or car lettering present which was causing pax some confusion and is something that FTPE needs to get sorted, as this isn't the first time this has happened.

**Just looked out of the window at home and its snowing like crazy in LOC, hope the wet ground keeps it from settling**

 

[Leylandlad]

Was 405 and 406 today, boarded at CAR with train running 8 late which turned into 15 late by the time we had been held to allow a late running Virgin GLC service to overtake via platform 1.

No seat reservations or car lettering present which was causing pax some confusion and is something that FTPE needs to get sorted, as this isn't the first time this has happened.

**Just looked out of the window at home and its snowing like crazy in LOC, hope the wet ground keeps it from settling**

Agreed, saw the formation arriving at Preston. Think they left about 5 late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvTH3Pa9OOI&feature=youtu.be

350 403 worked the 1008 Edinburgh-Manc Airp.

Absolutely perishing that wind! Not been on 350 yet, but I was impressed by how smooth and quiet they are, compared to the 185 engines.

 

[Class377/5]

Next two units are reported as arriving 2nd March with an overnight delivery.

 

[snail]

No seat reservations or car lettering present which was causing pax some confusion and is something that FTPE needs to get sorted, as this isn't the first time this has happened.

Even with it the retro table reservations are causing no end of confusion. I had someone trying to kick me out of seat 8F today with their reservation for 8B. The person opposite thought it meant Coach B...

 

[ianhr]

Agreed, saw the formation arriving at Preston. Think they left about 5 late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvTH3Pa9OOI&feature=youtu.be

350 403 worked the 1008 Edinburgh-Manc Airp.

Absolutely perishing that wind! Not been on 350 yet, but I was impressed by how smooth and quiet they are, compared to the 185 engines.

I travelled on a 350 for the first time yesterday (18/2/14). 404 was working the 10.08 Edinburgh-MIA. I joined it at Oxford Road (13.24) and it was absolutely packed with many standing when it arrived. I travelled back on the 14.00 from MIA as far as Wigan.

Agree that they are very smooth and quiet, a huge improvement over the dreadful 185s! A little noise from the a/c in some parts of the train and a pleasant low hum from the traction. Nice large windows and most seats have a reasonable view. Impressive acceleration from Ordsall Lane towards Eccles passing all the traffic on the motorway, but rather a lame run across Chat Moss....has the speed limited been raised yet? I thought it was to be 90 mph. It is a pity that Golborne Jct has to be negotiated at such low speed even with a green signal.

My only concerns are:
(i) although this is a high quality train it is essentially suburban stock and hardly appropriate for a 3 1/2 hr intercity journey.
(ii) there are still not enough seats and they are already showing a tendency to overcrowding. Virtually all seats were reserved with little capacity for passengers making shorter journeys.
....but I suppose that is TPE for you!

 

[ModernRailways]

(ii) there are still not enough seats and they are already showing a tendency to overcrowding. Virtually all seats were reserved with little capacity for passengers making shorter journeys.
....but I suppose that is TPE for you!

Somebody on Twitter was having a moan at Greater Anglia today for a similar thing. They don't see why those who have paid less should be allowed to fully reserve the train. There should always be 1 carriage left unreserved. On TPE I would say half a coach per unit should be left unreserved.

I agree about the stock choice too. TPE seem to be aiming for the more leisure traveller in their marketing, yet their stock is more suited to a commuter style all stations service, that would be stopping every 5 minutes or so.


Having now had the experience of their 350s I must say I am unimpressed. They really don't seem to be handling them well. They are loud, the speaker/PA system is faulty and never worked properly - constantly stuttering. To me they are a London Midland 350 working a Virgin Trains service. Although, in saying that these are London Midlands units on loan TPE IIRC.

The 350s (and the 185s) are not suitable for TPE's operations and hopefully something better will be built when the Manchester-Newcastle line is fully electrified.

 

[BurtonM]

On TPE I would say half a coach per unit should be left unreserved.

I don't agree with this: I think it should be closer to a coach or more. Consider that half a coach is taken up by the extremely low density First Class that can't even be used as standing space without declassification...

 

[MCR247]

Even with it the retro table reservations are causing no end of confusion. I had someone trying to kick me out of seat 8F today with their reservation for 8B. The person opposite thought it meant Coach B...

There are still trains like this?! Wow!

 

[fowler9]

Somebody on Twitter was having a moan at Greater Anglia today for a similar thing. They don't see why those who have paid less should be allowed to fully reserve the train. There should always be 1 carriage left unreserved. On TPE I would say half a coach per unit should be left unreserved.

I agree about the stock choice too. TPE seem to be aiming for the more leisure traveller in their marketing, yet their stock is more suited to a commuter style all stations service, that would be stopping every 5 minutes or so.


Having now had the experience of their 350s I must say I am unimpressed. They really don't seem to be handling them well. They are loud, the speaker/PA system is faulty and never worked properly - constantly stuttering. To me they are a London Midland 350 working a Virgin Trains service. Although, in saying that these are London Midlands units on loan TPE IIRC.

The 350s (and the 185s) are not suitable for TPE's operations and hopefully something better will be built when the Manchester-Newcastle line is fully electrified.

I'd say I partially agree with you. FTPE doesn't seem to know what it is meant to be doing. The trains are laid out like it is a commuter service but tickets are sold like its for long distance travellers who have planned a long time in advance. They have a difficult job to do though, the country is crowded with more and more people commuting further.

 

[transmanche]

although this is a high quality train it is essentially suburban stock and hardly appropriate for a 3 1/2 hr intercity journey.

Out of interest, is the 'suburban stock' tag solely because of the door positions, or for some other reason?

 

[fowler9]

I travelled on a 350 for the first time yesterday (18/2/14). 404 was working the 10.08 Edinburgh-MIA. I joined it at Oxford Road (13.24) and it was absolutely packed with many standing when it arrived. I travelled back on the 14.00 from MIA as far as Wigan.

Agree that they are very smooth and quiet, a huge improvement over the dreadful 185s! A little noise from the a/c in some parts of the train and a pleasant low hum from the traction. Nice large windows and most seats have a reasonable view. Impressive acceleration from Ordsall Lane towards Eccles passing all the traffic on the motorway, but rather a lame run across Chat Moss....has the speed limited been raised yet? I thought it was to be 90 mph. It is a pity that Golborne Jct has to be negotiated at such low speed even with a green signal.

My only concerns are:
(i) although this is a high quality train it is essentially suburban stock and hardly appropriate for a 3 1/2 hr intercity journey.
(ii) there are still not enough seats and they are already showing a tendency to overcrowding. Virtually all seats were reserved with little capacity for passengers making shorter journeys.
....but I suppose that is TPE for you!

Well there you go, the rolling stock is not suitable for long journies and there isn't enough capacity for shorter ones. Its a massive compromise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Out of interest, is the 'suburban stock' tag solely because of the door positions, or for some other reason?

I'd say the door position certainly makes rolling stock like that feel more like a suburban train.

 

[BurtonM]

Come to think of it, why did TPE order 350s and not 450s?

 

[Manchester77]

Come to think of it, why did TPE order 350s and not 450s?

The 350s and 450s are basically the same train just one has a pantograph and transformer whereas the other has 3rd rail shoe gear. The 4XX numbering indicates DC whereas the 3XX represents AC/Dual Voltage.

 

[transmanche]

Come to think of it, why did TPE order 350s and not 450s?

Because the 450s work on DC third rail (with passive provision for future conversion to dual-voltage), whereas the 350s are AC OHLE.

(Or did you mean 444s rather than 450s?)

 

[Class377/5]

Assuming he meant a 444, well you can't have those. You can have a 380 however.

But reason why TPE got 350's is because LM was already in the process of ordering some but delayed so the DfT let LM get 10 units in exchange for giving 10 to TPE from the new order.

Had they started from scratch then they wouldn't have had time to build them for May.

 

[Rhydgaled]

TPE seem to be aiming for the more leisure traveller in their marketing, yet their stock is more suited to a commuter style all stations service, that would be stopping every 5 minutes or so.

The 350s (and the 185s) are not suitable for TPE's operations and hopefully something better will be built when the Manchester-Newcastle line is fully electrified.

Out of interest, is the 'suburban stock' tag solely because of the door positions, or for some other reason?

Well there you go, the rolling stock is not suitable for long journies and there isn't enough capacity for shorter ones. Its a massive compromise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'd say the door position certainly makes rolling stock like that feel more like a suburban train.

Not been on the TPE 350s, but from the 185s I have to agree with the above. The door layout is certainly geared for short hops and makes the stock unsuitable for long journeys. The door arangment feels like it is stealing space to provide more standing room at the expense of comfort for long-distance passengers (and a journey of nearly an hour from Manchaster to Leeds is very much more than it is acceptable to ask passengers to stand for, in my opinion).

I hope when the full TPE electrification is carried out some proper regional express stock is ordered, something like a class 175 but powered by OHLE and equiped with corridor connections on the ends for passengers to walk between units. Oh, and order them in large enough quanities that the trains can be longer to cope with passenger numbers, rather than trying to cope by using short trains of suburban stock.

As a short-term measure, until more of TPE is electrified, and given that they are replacing 185s and not true regional-express stock though? Considering that, I think the 350s are an acceptable/understandable solution for now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Problem is, the old 158s struggled to keep to time between Leeds and Manchester at 4tph. From May, it'll be 5tph and once the wiring and 'Hub' is completed it'll be 6tph. Dwell times at Huddersfield would balloon if those services all had end-doors!

The solution is stock with doors at 1/3-2/3, but with sufficient capacity (read: longer trains- ideally 5/6-car minimum) that vestibule doors can be fitted and in use outside of the peaks to cut down on draughts.

 

[Bayum]

Problem is, the old 158s struggled to keep to time between Leeds and Manchester at 4tph. From May, it'll be 5tph and once the wiring and 'Hub' is completed it'll be 6tph. Dwell times at Huddersfield would balloon if those services all had end-doors!

The solution is stock with doors at 1/3-2/3, but with sufficient capacity (read: longer trains- ideally 5/6-car minimum) that vestibule doors can be fitted and in use outside of the peaks to cut down on draughts.

Dwell times at Leeds and York were horrific on the 158s. I much preferred a 158 to Piccadilly over the 185s, but I've been left behind and unable to alight from both traction types at Leeds, so make of that what you will!




Is there any word on when the sets will be stickers and liveried yet? I've noted a few complaining about carriages not being labelled and the like - when will it all be done? Is there time and slack in the 350 fleet for it to be done sharpish?