Contesting fare increases and railcard discount availability

[unsatisfied]

Evening fare 44% increase via newly-introduced evening peak times

Separately from this change, fares have risen by 4.6% across the board. As I do not have historical fare data, I will use the current prices for both peak and off-peak fares.

I travel with South Western Railway between Richmond and Staines in the evenings coming back from work. Previously, this was off-peak and would cost £4.30.
With the extension of contactless up to and including Virginia Water, SWR have introduced evening peak fares 16:00-19:00. Now, the same journey is peak and costs £6.20.
I now pay an additional 44%.

A ticket office worker was kind enough to show me a paper notice given to staff stating the change of evening peak times, although this change can be inferred from their ticket types page:

If your journey is wholly within the contactless and Oyster pay as you go area, Off Peak tickets [...] are not valid in the evening peak, 16:00-19:00, if your journey starts from, or you travel via, any station in London Zones 1-9.

From what the DfT told me, train operators are only regulated on Anytime Day Return fare prices/increases. I think this is why off-peak on SWR you often pay only 2-9% less for a single vs a return, making spontaneous journeys or staying overnight somewhere unjustifiably more expensive than returning the same day. Most European countries have discovered single-leg pricing... (Separately and unrelated to the contactless fare times there is a particular origin-destination fare scheme that makes no sense but I do not wish to reveal it as on occasions I use it to avoid paying more. I am certain this train operator's response will be to increase the fare of the ticket I use rather than reduce the fare of the more intuitive ticket that most people buy and I avoid using. But this is what you get when you have silly pricing schemes!)
Contactless makes travel easier for those who travel with Singles and don't have a railcard - I assume this is mostly tourists and travellers who don't travel the whole week as those who do will have season tickets. I don't travel the whole week, so have been subject to an additional 44% fare hike for no benefit. No-one has had their fare reduced. Is there any way to contest this effective fare hike? I feel like this is a stealth fare increase.

As a side note, if your train is scheduled to depart 16:00-19:00 and you are traveling to Virginia Water, if your train also stops at Longcross you can save 30p by buying a ticket to Longcross and stopping at Virginia Water... So much for making it easier to get the best fare.
If you travel 16:00-19:00 and buy a ticket at the vending machines (for example at Richmond), it will try to sell you an invalid ticket, and warn you that it isn't valid for trains 16:00-19:00 with a popup. Why not refuse to sell an invalid ticket, like how off-peak tickets aren't offered during the morning peak? So much for making this simpler.

Railcard discount not always available after 10:00 on TfL Oyster journeys

TfL applys the Railcard discount only on off-peak fares. As a bonus, they don't have the pre-10:00 £12 minimum fare restriction, so the railcard is applied before 04:30, and from 09:30 to 10:00, saving you 1/3 off then.
However, they don't apply the railcard during the evening peak 16:00 to 19:00, so you miss out on a 1/3 off during these times.

Can I contest the second point so they apply the discount during the evening peak? Or are they already being more nice than they need to be by allowing the Railcard to even sometimes be used on underground services?

Railcard discount not available on contactless-enabled journeys outside of the Oyster zone - unless you want to use your Railcard on National Rail tickets to pay more!

TfL doesn't apply railcards to contactless. The Oyster zone doesn't cover the entire contactless zone. TfL's fare finder says to buy a paper ticket if I select the Railcard option from London Paddington Rail Station to Reading Rail Station, but even with my 1/3 off it is still more expensive than contactless because the GWR fare isn't the same as (is more than) the off-peak TfL fare.
Can I contest this and reclaim the amount I have not been discounted? Below are the occasions where this is a problem for the specific journeys I may take.

I travel some time between 15:00 and 20:00. I have a 16-25 railcard, so I get 1/3 off (but not on TfL contactless, but I do on TfL Oyster, but Reading isn't in the Oyster zone). The cheapest fares depending on the time are as follows:

If I can tap in contactless before 16:00 - Use contactless for £13.60 TfL Off-Peak (£4.55 railcard discount refused, should only cost £9.05)
If I can't tap in contactless before 16:00 - Buy paper ticket for £18 GWR Off-Peak Day Single with Railcard
If I can tap in contactless after 19:00 - Use contactless for £13.60 TfL Off-Peak (£4.55 railcard discount refused, should only cost £9.05)

(This same TfL/GWR pattern applies for non-railcard users, as in the evening GWR off-peak fare is cheaper than TfL peak fare, but in the morning TfL peak fare is cheaper than GWR peak fares. They should reduce GWR off-peak fares to make them consistent with TfL's off-peak fares! Oh no, sorry, changing prices to make them consistent only happens when it means the rail operator gets more money, whoops.)

(As I only do this journey in the evening, I don't need to consider the misalignment of morning GWR peak scheduled train times and contactless tap-in times. And in the morning GWR peak hours start at the beginning of the day unlike TfL's 06:30.)

Do I have any chance of affecting the three underlined points or is this an unwinnable battle?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I do sympathise with yor problem. By all means complain but I doubt it will make any difference. The underlying issue is people at large believe that rail fares are too complicated and should be simplified, but such simplification normally results in fares increasing. It's not just here, see LNER's Simpler Fares trial.... Then add into the mix that the Government want to reduce the cost they have to pay to run the railway which means passengers end up paying more.

You might want to investigate SWR's Tap to Go https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/tap2go I'm not personally familiar with it but it seems to operate like GTR's KeyGo system which, if it does, might help you.

Also, do consider signing up to attend a forum meal or fares workshop where these sort of things often get discussed in more detail. It's tricky to discuss anomalies on the public forum as train company procing managers do monitor this section of the forum and anything advantageous can quickly get 'fixed'.

 

[JonathanH]

The cheapest fares depending on the time are as follows:

A single from Reading to Eynsford is £10.70 with your railcard, unrestricted in the evening peak, priced on a single leg basis, because of Project Oval.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum @unsatisfied

Evening fare 44% increase via newly-introduced evening peak times

Separately from this change, fares have risen by 4.6% across the board. As I do not have historical fare data, I will use the current prices for both peak and off-peak fares.

I travel with South Western Railway between Richmond and Staines in the evenings coming back from work. Previously, this was off-peak and would cost £4.30.
With the extension of contactless up to and including Virginia Water, SWR have introduced evening peak fares 16:00-19:00. Now, the same journey is peak and costs £6.20.
I now pay an additional 44%.

A ticket office worker was kind enough to show me a paper notice given to staff stating the change of evening peak times, although this change can be inferred from their ticket types page:

Unfortunately, this is the way that the DfT have chosen to implement the expansion of PAYG ticketing around London. There can be no real justification for introducing evening peak restrictions on journeys that were previously unrestricted. As a bare minimum, prices should have been reduced to compensate for the substantial reduction in evening validity. Of course that generally hasn't happened, so you end up with what the industry would argue are 'loopholes', whereby it's often cheaper to buy a ticket for a longer journey to avoid the evening peak restrictions associated with the expanded PAYG area.

Contactless makes travel easier for those who travel with Singles and don't have a railcard - I assume this is mostly tourists and travellers who don't travel the whole week as those who do will have season tickets. I don't travel the whole week, so have been subject to an additional 44% fare hike for no benefit.

I agree there is absolutely no financial benefit to you, and indeed to the vast majority of people. The problem is that people want "simple" ticketing and are (seemingly) prepared to pay much more to get this. That's how the government have been able to sneak this through.

No-one has had their fare reduced.

Most people who aren't returning the same day will have had their fare reduced, but that will only make up a minority of passengers on short journeys such as this.

Is there any way to contest this effective fare hike? I feel like this is a stealth fare increase.

At this stage I think it is too late to realistically do anything about it. It would have to be done through your MP but getting them to understand the issue, let alone come round to your view and lobby the government, may be an uphill battle.

As a side note, if your train is scheduled to depart 16:00-19:00 and you are traveling to Virginia Water, if your train also stops at Longcross you can save 30p by buying a ticket to Longcross and stopping at Virginia Water... So much for making it easier to get the best fare.

As you say, the new fare system is simple at the point of use, but there can be no guarantee it offers the cheapest fare. NB there is no requirement for you to take a train that goes towards (or stops at) Longcross for you to be able to use this method - you can 'finish short' at Virginia Water either way.

If you travel 16:00-19:00 and buy a ticket at the vending machines (for example at Richmond), it will try to sell you an invalid ticket

It's not completely invalid, it's just not valid if you want to travel immediately. I'll be the first to admit that most people buying a ticket at a TVM will want to travel immediately, but it is a distinction worth making.

and warn you that it isn't valid for trains 16:00-19:00 with a popup.

I think this warning is sufficient TBH - it's up to you to decide whether to proceed with the purchase or to choose another fare.

Why not refuse to sell an invalid ticket, like how off-peak tickets aren't offered during the morning peak? So much for making this simpler.

A fair suggestion but hard-coding the time restrictions like this can cause issues, e.g. on Bank Holidays.

Railcard discount not always available after 10:00 on TfL Oyster journeys

TfL applys the Railcard discount only on off-peak fares. As a bonus, they don't have the pre-10:00 £12 minimum fare restriction, so the railcard is applied before 04:30

It's actually until 06:30. Being able to make a morning journey at the off-peak rate if you touch in by 06:30 is one of the notable benefits of TfL's PAYG system.

and from 09:30 to 10:00, saving you 1/3 off then.
However, they don't apply the railcard during the evening peak 16:00 to 19:00, so you miss out on a 1/3 off during these times.

Evening peak journeys count towards the daily off-peak cap, which you get your Railcard discount on, but yes you don't get a discount on the actual fare itself (unless you're making a contra-peak journey, e.g. to Zone 1, where peak fares aren't charged in the evening).

Can I contest the second point so they apply the discount during the evening peak? Or are they already being more nice than they need to be by allowing the Railcard to even sometimes be used on underground services?

There's nothing to contest really - the Railcard terms and conditions clearly state that you get the discount for off-peak fares and caps. You can always buy a paper ticket for travel in the evening peak if you want; in some cases this will be cheaper than the peak PAYG fare - although you need to consider whether the peak or off-peak daily cap would limit the PAYG cost to less than the full peak fare.

And yes, in a way TfL are being more generous than they used to in giving off-peak Railcard discounts on Tube travel. Before the advent of Oyster PAYG this generally wasn't possible (with some exceptions such as U Zone fares or Day Travelcards). That said, they don't really have a choice in terms of offering the discount for National Rail services, and since they run two such services (the Overground and Elizabeth line) which they want people to feel are integrated with their Underground and DLR services, that forces their hand to a certain extent.

Railcard discount not available on contactless-enabled journeys outside of the Oyster zone - unless you want to use your Railcard on National Rail tickets to pay more!

TfL doesn't apply railcards to contactless. The Oyster zone doesn't cover the entire contactless zone. TfL's fare finder says to buy a paper ticket if I select the Railcard option from London Paddington Rail Station to Reading Rail Station, but even with my 1/3 off it is still more expensive than contactless because the GWR fare isn't the same as (is more than) the off-peak TfL fare.
Can I contest this and reclaim the amount I have not been discounted? Below are the occasions where this is a problem for the specific journeys I may take.

There is no entitlement to Railcard discounts for contactless PAYG fares under the Railcard terms and conditions, so there is nothing to contest. The single fare finder sets out the fare you'll be charged if you choose to use contactless (which is therefore undiscounted).

I travel some time between 15:00 and 20:00. I have a 16-25 railcard, so I get 1/3 off (but not on TfL contactless, but I do on TfL Oyster, but Reading isn't in the Oyster zone). The cheapest fares depending on the time are as follows:

If I can tap in contactless before 16:00 - Use contactless for £13.60 TfL Off-Peak (£4.55 railcard discount refused, should only cost £9.05)
If I can't tap in contactless before 16:00 - Buy paper ticket for £18 GWR Off-Peak Day Single with Railcard
If I can tap in contactless after 19:00 - Use contactless for £13.60 TfL Off-Peak (£4.55 railcard discount refused, should only cost £9.05)

It's more complicated than that, in fact. The validity of the paper Off-Peak Day Single (CDS, which you describe as 'GWR') depends on whether you take the Elizabeth line or GWR services - since the restriction code for the CDS excludes most GWR services between 16:00 and 19:18.

You also have to consider whether you'll be returning the same day (in which case, paper fares are likely cheaper with a Railcard, even outside the evening peak) or not (in which case, PAYG may be cheaper as it offers single leg pricing).

(This same TfL/GWR pattern applies for non-railcard users, as in the evening GWR off-peak fare is cheaper than TfL peak fare, but in the morning TfL peak fare is cheaper than GWR peak fares. They should reduce GWR off-peak fares to make them consistent with TfL's off-peak fares! Oh no, sorry, changing prices to make them consistent only happens when it means the rail operator gets more money, whoops.)

Fares simplification in the rail industry almost always happens in a way that financially benefits the industry, so I would be careful what you wish for. It's a highly suboptimal situation though, I agree.

(As I only do this journey in the evening, I don't need to consider the misalignment of morning GWR peak scheduled train times and contactless tap-in times. And in the morning GWR peak hours start at the beginning of the day unlike TfL's 06:30.)

Do I have any chance of affecting the three underlined points or is this an unwinnable battle?

Unfortunately the things you describe are simply how the system works and there is little to no point trying to contest anything.

 

[yorksrob]

Welcome to the forum!

I do sympathise with yor problem. By all means complain but I doubt it will make any difference. The underlying issue is people at large believe that rail fares are too complicated and should be simplified, but such simplification normally results in fares increasing. It's not just here, see LNER's Simpler Fares trial.... Then add into the mix that the Government want to reduce the cost they have to pay to run the railway which means passengers end up paying more.

You might want to investigate SWR's Tap to Go https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/tap2go I'm not personally familiar with it but it seems to operate like GTR's KeyGo system which, if it does, might help you.

Also, do consider signing up to attend a forum meal or fares workshop where these sort of things often get discussed in more detail. It's tricky to discuss anomalies on the public forum as train company procing managers do monitor this section of the forum and anything advantageous can quickly get 'fixed'.

Although its hard to see how introducing an evening peak fare where there was none previously can be interpreted as "simplification".

"Simplification" of fares is a load of old flannel put about by the DfT to cover new ways of increasing them.

If they were really interested in simplifying fares, they could do like Scotland and get rid of peak altogether.

 

[RT4038]

Although its hard to see how introducing an evening peak fare where there was none previously can be interpreted as "simplification".

"Simplification" of fares is a load of old flannel put about by the DfT to cover new ways of increasing them.

If they were really interested in simplifying fares, they could do like Scotland and get rid of peak altogether.

Or alternatively get rid of off peak fares.....

 

[yorksrob]

Or alternatively get rid of off peak fares.....

I bet they'd prefer it !

 

[AY1975]

Evening fare 44% increase via newly-introduced evening peak times

Separately from this change, fares have risen by 4.6% across the board. As I do not have historical fare data, I will use the current prices for both peak and off-peak fares.

I travel with South Western Railway between Richmond and Staines in the evenings coming back from work. Previously, this was off-peak and would cost £4.30.
With the extension of contactless up to and including Virginia Water, SWR have introduced evening peak fares 16:00-19:00. Now, the same journey is peak and costs £6.20.
I now pay an additional 44%.

A ticket office worker was kind enough to show me a paper notice given to staff stating the change of evening peak times, although this change can be inferred from their ticket types page:

When did this change take effect? The ticket types page on the SWR website doesn't appear to mention any evening peak restrictions on Off-Peak tickets, except for First Class.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket types page on the SWR website doesn't appear to mention any evening peak restrictions on Off-Peak tickets, except for First Class.

Staines to Richmond Off Peak Day Return (return portion) and Richmond to Staines Off Peak Day Single both have restrictions between 1600 and 1900.

 

[CyrusWuff]

When did this change take effect? The ticket types page on the SWR website doesn't appear to mention any evening peak restrictions on Off-Peak tickets, except for First Class.

For journeys involving the ~50 stations in Phase 1 of Project Oval, PM peak restrictions were introduced for journeys heading away from or across London in December 2023 where they didn't already exist.

This also saw Singles reduced to 50% of the price of the Return, with Off-Peak Singles being introduced where they didn't already exist.

 

[riverhexes]

Yes this has been really bothering me on lnwr services along the euston to bletchley line as well, the evening peak times introduced as part of project oval have been barely acknowledged and yet present a big fare increase from my perspective! And really confusing and counterintuitive, i can't make local journeys which in no way involve london anymore without worrying about having to get an anytime return in case theres a particularly long queue at morrisons and so i miss the train back and get one after 4pm which feels really restrictive, doubly confusing as one direction eg berkhamsted to hemel wouldnt be a peak service between 4 and 7 but the other way would. Do i pay loads extra for an anytime return or take the risk and then end up having to linger around harrow and wealdstone station for an hour in the rain until its 7pm?
It makes using public transport for everyday, local journeys feel complicated and not worth the hassle. And in fact with the off peak travelcard into london zones 1-6 which doesn't have evening restrictions it feels like the biggest impact of these changes is on relatively local journeys. I'd imagine from an equalites angle women and children are disproportionately affected by these changes as well.
Anyway just sharing in case it helps to hear that it seems to be a wider issue with project oval and some experiences of the negative effect of the new evening peak times

 

[miklcct]

There are both winners and losers for this fare simplification, in particular, the winners are those who only travel one way off-peak (the single fare is reduced), or who travel in the morning peak and return off-peak (now buying two singles is cheaper than in the past, where an Anytime Day Return was usually the cheapest fare), while the losers are obviously those who travel out of London during evening peak (an off-peak ticket can't be used now).

I think that it is fairer under the new fares because you always pay the peak fare if you travel out of London during peak hours, regardless of any other journeys you have taken in the day, and you always pay the off-peak fare outside the peak hours, and people who are not making a return journey, such as making one way journeys, triangular journeys, etc. are not penalised as well.