Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[Pdf]

How many people have switched from travel by car to travel by public transport as a result of Crossrail? If minimal, which I suspect it is (since nobody in their right mind drives into central London anyway), then the money has been wasted, and could have been better spent on enabling modal shift elsewhere in the country, where people drive into city centres.

Supposedly about 30% of the patronage is new traffic that would not have travelled by train without the Elizabeth Line. How they can be certain of this given the impacts of Covid and all that I have no idea.

Elizabeth line passenger numbers beating forecasts

Ahead of an Elizabeth line Committee meeting next week, Transport for London (TfL) says that the Elizabeth line is now beating post-pandemic passenger number forecasts.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[PacerTrain142]

There are still a few basket-case lines in Great Britain that escaped the Beeching-inspired axe and run through empty countryside serving very few places with any significant population. Examples include the Settle and Carlisle line and the West Highland extension. It would be quite a sight to watch the dynamiting of Ribblehead and Glenfinnan viaducts.

Those routes have great scenery though, which is probably why they were kept. Most of the passengers on those lines are tourists on a day out rather than commuters.

 

[Bartsimho]

Those routes have great scenery though, which is probably why they were kept. Most of the passengers on those lines are tourists on a day out rather than commuters.

Also some lines like the Heart Of Wales ran through constituencies of the correct colour and cutting them would have made core voters unhappy.

 

[Howardh]

Instead of HS2, the Northern Line should be extended to Manchester with a branch to Birmingham.

(Cue April Fool's headline....)

 

[Topological]

Instead of HS2, the Northern Line should be extended to Manchester with a branch to Birmingham.

(Cue April Fool's headline....)

Presumably the Central Line will be extended to bring in Cardiff Central, Exeter Central and Southampton Central, otherwise points West will be somewhat screwed by the underground?

To be fair the potential for visionary tube extension is massive:

Bakerloo to Bredbury
Piccadilly and Victoria to Manchester (well they shadow each other around Euston/St Pancras so why not)
Circle Line to Cathcart and Fife

My only controversial opinion here is that the potential should go unrealised.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Surely there are much better solutions for a so called cheap train than bringing back the Pacers which won't happen because they're obsolete.

Making new Pacers is a even worse idea, buses aren't designed like trains and honestly it'd be a crappy solution to have a train in the 21st century that is basically crap.

What about the parry people movers on the Stourbridge Shuttle line? They are basically minibuses on rails and work well for the very short run they do. They could make new bus like dmu's, in either 1 car or 2 car formation, ideal for quiet runs, as a suitable pacer/153 replacement. Maybe this time based off the design of a coach rather than a bus, or maybe even an articulated bus. They replaced large parts of the Manchester train network with trams and I haven't heard many complaints. There are also many busways popping up all over the country, which is basically a bus on grooves. Looks really strange, but seems to work well.

Also, railways should adopt more national express type services where its just one station to another non-stop with maybe one or two stops in between, instead of long distances services that call at every major town and city along the way. For example, they could do a non-stop service from London to Edinburgh, or London to Penzance, using a specially built high speed 1 or 2 car DMU (as I don't think you'd get that many passengers). This would provide faster travel between major cities and would be a far cheaper alternative to HS2.

Also, they should put on ultra-cheap megabus style services where it's say Manchester to London calling at a few stops along the way (or maybe even at every stop), using old DMU's like pacers, 153's and 150's. It takes much longer than the non-stop national express (or even normal intercity services) but the big advantage is it's much much cheaper. Imagine travelling all the way from Edinburgh to London in a pacer for a tenner!

It would be like this...

 

[Pdf]

Circle line should continue in ever widening spirals until it covers the whole country.

 

[Howardh]

Presumably the Central Line will be extended to bring in Cardiff Central, Exeter Central and Southampton Central, otherwise points West will be somewhat screwed by the underground?

To be fair the potential for visionary tube extension is massive:

Bakerloo to Bredbury
Piccadilly and Victoria to Manchester (well they shadow each other around Euston/St Pancras so why not)
Circle Line to Cathcart and Fife

My only controversial opinion here is that the potential should go unrealised.

Edgware to East Didsbury as a tube line would free up capacity on the WCML, no???

Also, they should put on ultra-cheap megabus style services where it's say Manchester to London calling at a few stops along the way (or maybe even at every stop), using old DMU's like pacers, 153's and 150's. It takes much longer than the non-stop national express (or even normal intercity services) but the big advantage is it's much much cheaper. Imagine travelling all the way from Edinburgh to London in a pacer for a tenner!

It would be like this...

I vaguely remember the old Northern doing such a thing, they found an old electric, charged £25 return (Manchester Victoria > London direct) and I was on it! Thinking late 90's?? Presume it would be diesel-pulled to, say Earlstown where it would join the WCML? This isn't some kind of weird dream, think I did it because of the cost and time was immaterial.

Wish I'd got some actual proof though!

But yes, I could cope with a pacer Manchester > Birmingham no stops, providing (a) the loo worked (b) the seating arrangement gave me decent legroom and (c) trolley service. About as far as Barrow > Carlisle on the Cumbrian coast line? They used pacers?? Imagine the rust from the sea-spray!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Margaret Thatcher was good for railways overall.

 

[py_megapixel]

Edgware to East Didsbury as a tube line would free up capacity on the WCML, no???

Why only as far as East Didsbury? Join it up to Metrolink and order some Tube trains equipped for street running. Could also join to Merseyrail by converting the CLC route.

"This is a Northern line service, via Bank, Market Street and Liverpool Central, terminating at Ormskirk."

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I vaguely remember the old Northern doing such a thing, they found an old electric, charged £25 return (Manchester Victoria > London direct) and I was on it! Thinking late 90's?? Presume it would be diesel-pulled to, say Earlstown where it would join the WCML? This isn't some kind of weird dream, think I did it because of the cost and time was immaterial.

Wish I'd got some actual proof though!

They were normally operated using Class 158 diesel multiple units. Operated from Euston to Manchester Victoria (and then Rochdale) via Warrington Bank Quay (unadvertised stop) from 1998-2000. Think a portion to Blackpool North was detached at Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Edgware to East Didsbury as a tube line would free up capacity on the WCML, no???


I vaguely remember the old Northern doing such a thing, they found an old electric, charged £25 return (Manchester Victoria > London direct) and I was on it! Thinking late 90's?? Presume it would be diesel-pulled to, say Earlstown where it would join the WCML? This isn't some kind of weird dream, think I did it because of the cost and time was immaterial.

Wish I'd got some actual proof though!

But yes, I could cope with a pacer Manchester > Birmingham no stops, providing (a) the loo worked (b) the seating arrangement gave me decent legroom and (c) trolley service. About as far as Barrow > Carlisle on the Cumbrian coast line? They used pacers?? Imagine the rust from the sea-spray!

I think a pacer would be a bit too bumpy for a trolley service, the trolley would probably be rolling all over the place and there would be a lot of spilt coffee! Did pacers ever run from Preston to Carlisle on the WCML? That would make a good cheap intercity service, calling at Lancaster, Carnforth, Oxenholme and Penrith. I drove from Preston to Carlisle in a 142 in train simulator classic, it was quite a nice run, and only took an hour and a half.

 

[Howardh]

Why only as far as East Didsbury? Join it up to Metrolink and order some Tube trains equipped for street running. Could also join to Merseyrail by converting the CLC route.

"This is a Northern line service, via Bank, Market Street and Liverpool Central, terminating at Ormskirk."

Intention was to transfer tube pax to the metro! Interesting point though, could a two/four car tube train run on the metrolink lines, with panto rather than third rail? Would it fit, what adjustments would be required (ie narrowing the front?)?

 

[Krokodil]

Those routes have great scenery though, which is probably why they were kept. Most of the passengers on those lines are tourists on a day out rather than commuters.

Nothing to do with scenery, except for the VoR where Barbara Castle was so charmed on a visit that it stayed open, with the local manager fiddling the figures to attribute Cambrian revenue to the VoR to make it look like less of a basket case until it was privatised in 1989. The reason that some rural lines and small halts on lines that lost busier stations was that communities had poor road connections and would have been cut off without a railway. The winter of 1963 helped here because the railway managed to get through when roads were blocked.

What about the parry people movers on the Stourbridge Shuttle line? They are basically minibuses on rails and work well for the very short run they do. They could make new bus like dmu's, in either 1 car or 2 car formation, ideal for quiet runs, as a suitable pacer/153 replacement. Maybe this time based off the design of a coach rather than a bus, or maybe even an articulated bus. They replaced large parts of the Manchester train network with trams and I haven't heard many complaints.

Parry People Movers aren't going to happen these days, though high-floor trams may provide economical rolling stock for local railways - this is effectively what TfW are doing in the Valleys.

Margaret Thatcher was good for railways overall.

Well she avoided privatising the railways which was a plus. When you think of some of the Transport Secretaries and Rail Ministers we've seen lately (Grayling, Shapps, Merriman etc.) then I certainly think that she couldn't have been worse than them.

 

[Howardh]

I think a pacer would be a bit too bumpy for a trolley service, the trolley would probably be rolling all over the place and there would be a lot of spilt coffee! Did pacers ever run from Preston to Carlisle on the WCML? That would make a good cheap intercity service, calling at Lancaster, Carnforth, Oxenholme and Penrith. I drove from Preston to Carlisle in a 142 in train simulator classic, it was quite a nice run, and only took an hour and a half.

bib; just think of the shaken cockails!!

Have a feeling you could get from Victoria to Leeds on a pacer via Bradford, and maybe even Blackpool North to Yorkshire via Blackburn? Had it not been for the accessible toilet issues, pacers could still be in service - and useful?

I think they SHOULD have been converted- or even toilets removed - and used on short-distance shuttle lines (Windermere/Oxenholme, Blackpool South/Preston, Ormskirk/Preston etc) as the last ones I rode on still seemed to have some life in them after a bit of TLC. Even if just a handful.

Wonders if it would have been relatively easier and quick to re-train a bus driver as a pacer driver, especially on lines used by little or no other traffic?

 

[sprinterguy]

Those routes have great scenery though, which is probably why they were kept. Most of the passengers on those lines are tourists on a day out rather than commuters.

I don't think that "great scenery" was a factor in the retention of routes in the 1960s. The S&C was proposed for withdrawal of passenger services via the Beeching report and only two stations, Settle and Appleby, avoided closure.

Hardship impacting communities served en route was the most common case for retention of rural lines, allied to their accessibility (or lack of) by road; the promotion of railways for their scenic potential was more of a BR initiative that came twenty years later, though admittedly observation cars had operated over the Mallaig extension of the WHL before any Beeching-era plans for rationalisation.

I vaguely remember the old Northern doing such a thing, they found an old electric, charged £25 return (Manchester Victoria > London direct) and I was on it! Thinking late 90's?? Presume it would be diesel-pulled to, say Earlstown where it would join the WCML? This isn't some kind of weird dream, think I did it because of the cost and time was immaterial.

North West Trains operated Rochdale - Euston via Manchester Victoria with class 158s as noted above, and Manchester Airport - Euston primarily with ex-Stansted Express class 322s, but also occasionally with the former Clacton class 309s that had been brought in by Regional Railways North West to operate the Piccadilly - Airport shuttles; which would probably be the "old electric" that you remember but I feel that you might be conflating two separate memories. The buffer and buckeye coupler fitted 309s could, I suppose, be diesel hauled but I can't recall it happening in North West passenger service.

 

[Krokodil]

North West Trains operated Rochdale - Euston via Manchester Victoria with class 158s as noted above, and Manchester Airport - Euston primarily with ex-Stansted Express class 322s, but also occasionally with the former Clacton class 309s that had been brought in by Regional Railways North West to operate the Piccadilly - Airport shuttles; which would probably be the "old electric" that you remember but I feel that you might be conflating two separate memories. The buffer and buckeye coupler fitted 309s could, I suppose, be diesel hauled but I can't recall it happening in North West passenger service.

Was it the original plan for the 180s to be used on this?

 

[sprinterguy]

Was it the original plan for the 180s to be used on this?

Yep, I believe so.

 

[Purple Train]

It would be like this...

My controversial opinion is that the same bloke's all-stations Paddington-Penzance with a Pacer should run hourly

 

[The Ham]

There is absolutely no denying that the North of England gets disproportionately less funding than the South, and yes that needs to be addressed. But claiming that everything they do every single time is a waste of money is an act of jealousy, because, as the Elizabeth Line shows, they damn well pay off

I would question how much money the North gets, it's very easy to define how much infrastructure spending is/isn't spent in any given location (interestingly whenever this comes to many overlook that the South East tends to be fairly low down the list - so if only looking at infrastructure spending arguably the South East should also get more).

However there's another factor the amount of subsidy that is spent in any given area. That is harder to define, however is typically more in the North than the south.

I previously worked out that if SWR/SWT was given the same level of subsidy as TPE then the extra money would have allowed them to pay for Crossrail 2 within something like 10 years (it may have been less or a bit more I don't recall the exact numbers).

This is my view as well - and I say this as a northerner. When I read that we should "stop investing in rail in the SE of England" because of the lack of investment in the north, it just screams "chippy provincial jealousy", when in reality both are needed, it's not either/or.

Having said the above, I fully agree with this, there's a need for more investment in railways across the entire country and in fighting about who should get the money doesn't help anyone.

There's probably things which need doing in some locations and not others, for example there's little point lengthening trains in the SE (as they are often quite long already) however that is something which is needed across many other areas as they often see 3 or even 2 coach trains on services which could see reasonable growth if they were only given the chance to be run as (say) 4 to 6 coaches (or 4 run as 8 or 6 run as 9, etc).

 

[Bald Rick]

That is harder to define, however is typically more in the North than the south.

Its pretty easy to define, you just research the annual net payments to Northern and TPE by DfT, and compare them to the sum total of SWR, Southeastern, Greater Anglia, c2c, GTR and Chiltern. (Obviously WMT and GWR are difficult to break down)

 

[jfowkes]

Hardly controversial if that's the actual plan, surely? Or is the EWR plan also controversial...

It's one of the options put forward by EWR, but certainly a controversial one. Users of the line quite understandably don't want their particular local station to close, even if another "replaces" it a mile or two away.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

All trains, even on express routes, should have a maximum speed of 60mph. That way passengers would be able to relax more, enjoy the scenery and arrive at their destination far more calmer than they otherwise would have been. Too much emphasis in modern life is placed on doing things as quickly as possible rather than taking your time and enjoying the experience.

 

[jfowkes]

How many people have switched from travel by car to travel by public transport as a result of Crossrail? If minimal, which I suspect it is (since nobody in their right mind drives into central London anyway), then the money has been wasted, and could have been better spent on enabling modal shift elsewhere in the country, where people drive into city centres.

Modal shift is important but it's not the only reason to enable journeys. Presumably these 30% of journeys are for some reason, as people don't tend to randomly take trains just for the sake of it (members of this forum excluded).
So those new journeys are likely creating economic and social benefits at very little environmental cost, which is a win in my book.

 

[riceuten]

Arbitrary suggestion, route Bury line to Victoria Low Level, then follow the route similar to the Picc-Vic tunnel plan but under Deansgate instead of Cross Street, then turn South to connect Oxford Street and Piccadilly.
Alternatively, from Victoria Low Level go under Ring Road to at Northern Quarter / Ancoats, Piccadilly Low Level, then go between Oxford Road and the University, then join the existing line at Deansgate and quadruple-track between Deansgate and Cornbrook.

Good luck with the funding for that

 

[PGAT]

All trains, even on express routes, should have a maximum speed of 60mph. That way passengers would be able to relax more, enjoy the scenery and arrive at their destination far more calmer than they otherwise would have been. Too much emphasis in modern life is placed on doing things as quickly as possible rather than taking your time and enjoying the experience.

You’re really taking the “without a firm foundation in logic” to another level

 

[Krokodil]

All trains, even on express routes, should have a maximum speed of 60mph. That way passengers would be able to relax more, enjoy the scenery and arrive at their destination far more calmer than they otherwise would have been. Too much emphasis in modern life is placed on doing things as quickly as possible rather than taking your time and enjoying the experience.

In order to avoid the roads gaining an advantage here, the Motor Car Act 1903 should be brought back, limiting speeds on all public highways to 20mph. The Welsh Government are halfway there...

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I have a number of controversial opinions that'll probably wind everyone up:

1. Britain's railways are soulless and boring - lack of uniformity, lack of national train builders, train after train of boring, identical multiple units. Just awful. The Great Eastern has been ruined in the past few years with the introduction of the Stadler trains, the route had so much more variety in traction before and now its the same train to Southend/Clacton wherever and the longer, weirder looking ones that run to Norwich. Don't even bother remembering the class of new trains any more. Much prefer Amtrak, Renfe or the Japanese railways.

2. Beeching was awful - I'd rather risk a world in where Beeching didn't exist and the railways had to find their way without him, because I really think his cuts impacted the soul of the country. For whatever reason, the British country branch line was something of a great comfort in the national psyche, possibly in the post-war period it was a reminder of a more stable time or at least created a form of escapism for a traumatised country. Taking that away without much obvious care has left a permanent sense of discomfort and soul searching in railway circles and the wider public.

3. We were too quick to forget Waterloo International - I think the Eurostar has lost a lot of magic and romance compared to how it was in the 90s. Running the Eurostar, a quarter of a mile long high speed train, that literally went to another country, impeccable feat for an island nation, past signals that pathed a train to Orpington just before pathing a Eurostar to Paris, is amazing to think about. Sure, we didn't build a dedicated high speed line from the Channel Tunnel immediately, but adapting our existing railway for use of "Super Trains" to the Continent, looking back, was a pretty epic thing to do. HS1 may be fast, St. Pancras may be grand - but its not...interesting. I can't stand on the High Street doing my shopping waiting for the long, roaring train to Paris fly overhead, unless I pay for a Javelin ticket and watch the trains in the bowels of Stratford International station.

4. Network SouthEast was great, but I'm not sure if I want it back - I find that whilst the NSE livery looked perfect on most stock, for termini like Waterloo, where every train was in NSE livery, it could begin to look a bit overwhelming.

5. The Elizabeth Line is...not that great - the class 345s look stupid, the stations are bland and identical (unlike the Jubilee Line stations which are all laid out slightly differently) and the ride is boring. Compare that to the Jubilee Line where you have far more junctions, the clatter of the shoes over the live rail, the sound of the 96 stock traction motors -it's still an epic ride 20 years later. I don't know, maybe its because I'm autistic and I care far more about trains in a level of detail most people find ridiculous, but I was pretty disappointed with the EL when I rode it on opening day last year.

6. The Southern Region is the best Region. End of.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Also, they should put on ultra-cheap megabus style services where it's say Manchester to London calling at a few stops along the way (or maybe even at every stop), using old DMU's like pacers, 153's and 150's. It takes much longer than the non-stop national express (or even normal intercity services) but the big advantage is it's much much chcheaper.

Isn't this what TfW already do on Cardiff to Manchester?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Agreed, although the ride is better than an IET on the same route.

I've long been of the opinion that, given identical track conditions (well-maintained CWR) a Mk4 set at full chat rides worse than a 144 at full chat.

I think a pacer would be a bit too bumpy for a trolley service, the trolley would probably be rolling all over the place and there would be a lot of spilt coffee! Did pacers ever run from Preston to Carlisle on the WCML? That would make a good cheap intercity service, calling at Lancaster, Carnforth, Oxenholme and Penrith. I drove from Preston to Carlisle in a 142 in train simulator classic, it was quite a nice run, and only took an hour and a half.

Funnily enough in a thread a few years ago there was mention of a Leeds to London service being cancelled in the 1980s with a spare HST picking up the run from Doncaster. Neville Hill managed to find a spare 141 to run to Donny and make the connection, complete with a trolley service!

Beeching was awful - I'd rather risk a world in where Beeching didn't exist and the railways had to find their way without him, because I really think his cuts impacted the soul of the country. For whatever reason, the British country branch line was something of a great comfort in the national psyche, possibly in the post-war period it was a reminder of a more stable time or at least created a form of escapism for a traumatised country. Taking that away without much obvious care has left a permanent sense of discomfort and soul searching in railway circles and the wider public.

Many of the real basket-case lines had closed before Beeching. Though even some of those would be useful today, Holmfirth being an obvious one in my part of the world.

As for controversial takes, many say that Marples was the real villain rather than Beeching... I say Barbara Castle was the real villain, as she could have "pumped the brakes" but chose not to.

(I may have been channelling the bloke from the "Counter Point" clip in the movie "Airplane!" with that one).