Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[Bletchleyite]

Correction to self: the TGVs are in fact 4.3x m high, but, to be fair, the UK standard gauges are around 3.95m high.

An Enviro400 double decker bus is 4.3m high too. Take 30cm off the upstairs and it's going to be very hard to move around without duck walking or being a small child.

 

[Tester]

Yes, not only loading gauge but track gauge too; Around 7 feet sounds good, and some stations might still have space for it.....

I think just a little bit over

 

[BogiePicker]

I believe the height of the Japanese narrow gauge double deck vehicles is something like ~4.1m or so.
However, I don't think they have the lower structure gauge issues that plague conventional British railways.

I speculate that 2.65m of external width would be available at a absolute maximum in the lower sector. This is not much less than a Class 185 at 2.666m. One might accept narrower corridors (Class 720, cough cough) and reserve special single deck vehicles for accessibility requirements.

An Enviro400 double decker bus is 4.3m high too. Take 30cm off the upstairs and it's going to be very hard to move around without duck walking or being a small child.

My point was rather that some DD stock are 'only ' 30cm taller than British stock, so instead of going for continental 4.5m, let's see if we can fit shorter (captive) trains on a limited number of routes. As above, Japanese DD are 4.1m in height.

 

[LUYMun]

Phil Sayer and Celia Drummond's (RIP to both) voices should be synthesised and continue to be used forever as the standard GBR announcements. Their style of narration are so memorable their replacements just don't hold a candle to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point was rather that some DD stock are 'only ' 30cm taller than British stock, so instead of going for continental 4.5m, let's see if we can fit shorter (captive) trains on a limited number of routes. As above, Japanese DD are 4.1m in height.

And Japanese people are typically quite short!

It just wouldn't work here other than captive sets on HS2 if built in full. But even that would have downsides in preventing engineering diversions onto classic lines.

 

[eldomtom2]

And Japanese people are typically quite short!

Average male height is 172cm in Japan and 175cm in the UK. Not much of a difference...

 

[Recessio]

Phil Sayer and Celia Drummond's (RIP to both) voices should be synthesised and continue to be used forever as the standard GBR announcements. Their style of narration are so memorable their replacements just don't hold a candle to them.

It'd be relatively easy to do given some of the deepfake technology available, even in the hands of a simple smartphone app nowadays. I imagine there could be copyright issues though? Not sure if there's much case law on "cloning a deceased VA announcer for use on a railway"

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I hate the Overground.

I've realised this recently. I'm just sick of it. The Dalston to New Cross/Gate section is a marvel. But the whole system has been slowly getting on my nerves since 2011 and now I've taken to avoiding it. Problems include:

1. The constant overcrowding south of NXG. 5 cars are nowhere near enough for peak times along the Forest Hill corridor. I'd much prefer a regular stopping Thameslink service running down that line instead of the Overground. At least let us have another 2tph from London Bridge to East Croydon again.
2. Canada Water station - not suited for such a large amount of people interchanging there.
3. So. Much. Orange.
4. The trains seem to go pretty slowly most of the time
5. "This is the London Overground service to..." rinse and repeat every 2 minutes
6. The traction motor sounds of the trains. I know this is really geeky, but they have such a mournful pitch and because they're constantly idling between stations, there's nearly always a constant whine coming from them.
7. The new names. Don't get me started on those.
8. The weird and annoying lack of interchanges: Old Oak Common, Brixton, Brockley, Shoreditch for the Central Line...hellloooo?
9. Why do some trains have that ugly black livery now?
10. Regular service from Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Clapham and Wandsworth Road...not to Victoria.

 

[birchesgreen]

Average male height is 172cm in Japan and 175cm in the UK. Not much of a difference...

Yes kind of a myth that East Asian people are short, maybe that was the case decades ago but not really anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes kind of a myth that East Asian people are short, maybe that was the case decades ago but not really anymore.

I don't think you get as many extremes. Being 6' 4" I was almost a freak show in China, everyone wanted my photo.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Noticed that a lot of the posters on this thread seem to be forgetting about freight. A couple of examples:

Loco haulage versus multiple unit trains: Well, nobody is likely to be arguing that intensive commuter services should be loco-hauled. But, one of the arguments for loco haulage of longer distance trains used to be that it economised on equipment. The locos that hauled daytime inter-city passenger services could be swopped to hauling freight at night (double-headed if necessary). Surely for a national rail operator that made sense; the argument for loco haulage only fell by the wayside when privatisation meant that the locos were no longer in the same ownership. (A different argument in favour of loco haulage is that if any one vehicle became defective, it is only that one that has to be taken away for repair - not the whole unit).

The HS1 link to the Channel Tunnel is indeed under-used. If national interest trumped providing profit to the infrastructure owners, surely we should be seeing more freight trains, replacing lorries using the Tunnel shuttles.

 

[Krokodil]

The locos that hauled daytime inter-city passenger services could be swopped to hauling freight at night

Wasn't that the idea for the class 91s?

 

[hexagon789]

Wasn't that the idea for the class 91s?

Sleepers rather than freight iirc, but similar idea certainly.

 

[D6130]

Sleepers rather than freight iirc, but similar idea certainly.

....careering through the night out of control with no driver on board. Oh wait! Sorry....wrong thread!

 

[Ken H]

Wasn't that the idea for the class 91s?

I think thats why they have a cab at the blunt end. And I think dragging heavy trains over Shap was a requirement when they were procured. I wonder how much more money the locos cost to have the shap capability.

 

[Bald Rick]

If national interest trumped providing profit to the infrastructure owners, surely we should be seeing more freight trains, replacing lorries using the Tunnel shuttles.

They would get as far as the eurotunnel boundary before bringing down the wires on HS1.

 

[LUYMun]

My controversial opinion:
Seat reservations should be abolished, or charged at a level that discourages people from booking them speculatively or for short hops (e.g. £5-£10 a leg) and limited to maybe 1/4 of the train's seating capacity.

They seem to cause increased dwell times, arguments between passengers and conflicts in passenger flow as those walking down a platform/carriage to find their booked carriage/seats have to try and pass others coming the other way!

Boarding would be so much smoother if passengers knew they could just jump onto any coach and into the first free seats they see, clearing the aisle.

My local station is served by XC (lots of reservations) and Chiltern (no reservations) and even allowing for the differing door positions of a Voyager vs 168, the Chiltern trains are much quicker and easier for everyone to get boarded and sat down!

Because reservations are free, even for the shortest journeys, people also often book reservations they don't need. This leads to people being unsure if they can grab a seat that looks like a 'no-show', plus blocks the seat from being reserved for a longer distance journey where it might be worthwhile.

The only thing I would do is allow free seat reservation for any holders of Senior/Disabled railcards, or any booking that includes both an adult and child ticket (to give families a chance of sitting together).

+1

 

[Peter Wilde]

They would get as far as the eurotunnel boundary before bringing down the wires on HS1.

Why? The comment was about freight trains. Not lorry-carrying trains.

 

[Crithylum]

Why do some trains have that ugly black livery now?

I agree the aventra livery looks absolutely awful on the electrostars specifically.

The traction motor sounds of the trains. I know this is really geeky, but they have such a mournful pitch and because they're constantly idling between stations, there's nearly always a constant whine coming from them.

Although I think the electrostars make an interesting sound (in a good way), the high pitched noise on top drives me mad. Now time for my “controversial” opinion:

The Aventra is a brilliant sounding train. Despite being the most boring sound of any train imo, the 50hz hum just feels satisfying.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I agree the aventra livery looks absolutely awful on the electrostars specifically.


Although I think the electrostars make an interesting sound (in a good way), the high pitched noise on top drives me mad. Now time for my “controversial” opinion:

The Aventra is a brilliant sounding train. Despite being the most boring sound of any train imo, the 50hz hum just feels satisfying.

Yes I know what you mean. On top of a motor bogie on a 377 it really is loud.

 

[Indigo Soup]

An assortment of random, poorly considered opinions. One or two of these might actually be good ideas. If so, this is entirely accidental.

1. Delay Repay should be awarded on the basis of the Anytime Single fare, not the fare paid. This would provide a stronger financial incentive for rail operators to run to time, as well as a disincentive to extortionate walk-up fares with heavily discounted options for those who travel only in odd-numbered seats under the light of the full moon.
2. There should be no fare increases on any route on which both (a) overcrowding is regularly experienced and (b) all trains are not run at the maximum permissible length.
3. All lines should be signalled to allow the shortest possible headway compatible with their line speed, regardless of actual service levels.
4. A staffed ticket office and waiting room should be provided at all stations with more than a nominal level of service. The ticket office clerks should have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Fares Manual, Routing Guide, and have a cheery disposition, and on duty from at least 15 minutes prior to the first train to 15 minutes after the last train. Refreshments should be available at all of these except those served purely by high frequency intra-urban trains.
5. There should be a buffet car available on journeys over two hours in length. Full meals should be available on journeys over four hours. Griddle cars should be brought back for the awkward middle bit that needs meal service but not a full restaurant.
6. There should be a British Transport Police officer on board busy trains. In some cases, this may need to be enhanced to a Police Support Unit with public order gear.
7. Voyagers are perfectly good trains, and would have a good reputation if they'd been ordered as full length intercity trains.
8. With ubiquitous smartphone ticketing and ticket vending machines, there is no excuse for not having a ticket. Anyone caught aboard a train, or leaving it, without a valid ticket should be charged the Anytime Single (with no discounts) from the origin point of that train to their destination. Penalty fares, however, should be abolished as vindictive.
9. Driverless trains are easier to create than driverless cars, because they don't have to worry about steering.
10. Advance fares should go back to being unavailable after 1800 the day before travel. There's one word in their name. It's not difficult.
11. Richard Beeching should have been made Minister for Transport.
12. There should be high quality, fast, limited-stop trains linking all of the principal urban areas in Great Britain. These trains should not also serve as all-stations stopping trains for local traffic. Where necessary, additional trains should be run to serve local traffic, and infrastructure improved accordingly.
13. Espresso machines should be removed from on train catering. They take up too much time and space, and instant coffee is excellent these days.
14. All those supermarkets and retail parks on old goods yards should have their rail link reinstated and be required to receive deliveries by rail.

 

[Meerkat]

Delay Repay should be awarded on the basis of the Anytime Single fare, not the fare paid. This would provide a stronger financial incentive for rail operators to run to time

That just raises the subsidy. They would just thin the service out and put the prices up.

There should be no fare increases on any route on which both (a) overcrowding is regularly experienced and (b) all trains are not run at the maximum permissible length.

On that principle there should be significant fare increases when any service improvements are made?

All lines should be signalled to allow the shortest possible headway compatible with their line speed, regardless of actual service levels.

Isn’t the line speed based on the signalling?

 

[Indigo Soup]

That just raises the subsidy. They would just thin the service out and put the prices up.

Either that or the schedules get horribly padded.

On that principle there should be significant fare increases when any service improvements are made?

I didn't say it was a good idea - though I did at least include some concessions to operational realities!

Isn’t the line speed based on the signalling?

Cuts both ways - speed is also a function of alignment, as I understand it. But the gist of that thought is that the capacity of a road built to a certain engineering standard and number of lanes is the same whether it's in the highlands of Scotland or in the densest part of southern England. Claiming that a rail line that sees 2tph is 'full' while another apparently one with 12tph (imaginary numbers!) makes rail look a little bit silly.

If I've understood ETCS Level 3 correctly, it will actually achieve this one, if it's ever fully deployed.

 

[Krokodil]

On that principle there should be significant fare increases when any service improvements are made?

Well LNER has seen some quite considerable fare increases. Any sign of improved services as a result?

 

[yorksrob]

[*]Richard Beeching should have been made Minister for Transport.

I think you meant to say "Minister for Paperclips".

 

[Falcon1200]

Delay Repay should not apply when the incident is beyond the railway's control, as per the Stockport trespass on Saturday, which will have been hugely expensive.

Conversely, forms of transport competing with rail should be subject to identical Delay Repay rules.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I think you meant to say "Minister for Paperclips".

Nope. The Beeching take on roads would have been very interesting. You could expect to see, based on things he actually said in interviews:

• Significant restrictions on bringing cars into cities, especially on on-street parking, and potentially a requirement that car owners would have to have off-street parking for their vehicles
• Better integration of bus and rail transport
• A reduction in the indirect subsidies provided to air transport, coach operators, and road hauliers

Broadly speaking, I think that everyone should have cause to curse his name, not just rail enthusiasts!

 

[yorksrob]

Nope. The Beeching take on roads would have been very interesting. You could expect to see, based on things he actually said in interviews:

• Significant restrictions on bringing cars into cities, especially on on-street parking, and potentially a requirement that car owners would have to have off-street parking for their vehicles
• Better integration of bus and rail transport
• A reduction in the indirect subsidies provided to air transport, coach operators, and road hauliers

Broadly speaking, I think that everyone should have cause to curse his name, not just rail enthusiasts!

But a lot less railway as well (undoubtedly interesting although the roads angle would have been).

 

[Indigo Soup]

But a lot less railway as well (undoubtedly interesting although the roads angle would have been).

Notwithstanding that we have differing views on how much railway would remain, I think that the remaining network would be far healthier if the indirect subsidies for roads were removed. For all his flaws, Beeching was very much an equal opportunities anti-subsidy man!

You'd certainly need a Labour government to come along afterwards, pick up the pieces, and accept the need for considered subsidies. But the problems we're now facing with overreliance on road transport were foreseen by Beeching at a time when they could have been tackled comparatively easily.

 

[yorksrob]

Notwithstanding that we have differing views on how much railway would remain, I think that the remaining network would be far healthier if the indirect subsidies for roads were removed. For all his flaws, Beeching was very much an equal opportunities anti-subsidy man!

You'd certainly need a Labour government to come along afterwards, pick up the pieces, and accept the need for considered subsidies. But the problems we're now facing with overreliance on road transport were foreseen by Beeching at a time when they could have been tackled comparatively easily.

Maybe roads minister then !