Corbyn sacks former leadership rival over Brexit claims

[EM2]

Needless to say I disagree with all of the above. On the democracy point the European Commission originates legislation, yet is comprised of unelected members, contrast with the U.K. parliament.

Is comprised of nominated members, each nominated by member governments, who are elected by their populace.
EDIT - Oh, and they have to be approved by the European Parliament, where no such scrutiny exists for the UK Government Cabinet.

How anyone can state that the EU is “more democratic than Westminster” simply defeats me.

For a start, as far as I'm aware the EU doesn't have an unelected upper chamber that can have members selected to it at the Government's whim.

You’re clearly in thrall to the EU and see it as flawless - feel free to go and live in it.

I already do. But 37% of the electorate have decided that I won't in a year's time.

 

[Bromley boy]

You said the EU commission had unelected members in contrast to the UK parliament, which consists of both houses.

You’ve evidently missed the point.

The point I was making was that in the U.K. the lower (elected) house originates most legislation.

Contrast that with the EU setup.

 

[Bromley boy]

Is comprised of nominated members, each nominated by member governments, who are elected by their populace.

That’s highly democratic then isn’t it (not).

For a start, as far as I'm aware the EU doesn't have an unelected upper chamber that can have members selected to it at the Government's whim.

You’ve evidently failed to grasp my previous point about origination of legislation.

I already do. But 37% of the electorate have decided that I won't in a year's time.

Indeed. You won’t live in the EU in a year’s time.

Time to move on?!

 

[trash80]

No you missed the point that parliament consists of two houses, they both have their roles and are necessary. Anyway we are mostly arguing over terms.

 

[Bromley boy]

No you missed the point that parliament consists of two houses, they both have their roles and are necessary. Anyway we are mostly arguing over terms.

No I didn’t miss the point.

You made the irrelevant statement that the upper house is unelected.

I made the point that the lower house originates legislation.

Care to contrast that with the EU?!

 

[EM2]

That’s highly democratic then isn’t it (not).

Yes it is.

You’ve evidently failed to grasp my previous point about origination of legislation.

Who originates legislation in the UK? Could it be the Cabinet, whom the populace have no say in who was appointed to those positions? Or even the Lords, who are completely unelected?
It of course can sometimes be other MPs, but with no way of anyone knowing if any of their electorate support what they propose.

Indeed. You won’t live in the EU in a year’s time.

Time to move on?!

Personal circumstances mean that I am unfortunately stuck here with people who would happily see the entire country be financially worse off for no obvious advantage.

 

[Bromley boy]

Who originates legislation in the UK? Could it be the Cabinet, whom the populace have no say in who was appointed to those positions?

Are the current cabinet not all elected MPs, then?

I must be missing something.

 

[EM2]

Are the current cabinet not all elected MPs, then?

I must be missing something.

And who decides who gets selected for the Cabinet? You and me? No, it is entirely at the whim of the Prime Minister. A very similar scenario to that of your hated European Commission, but at least there they all have to be approved by the Parliament.

 

[edwin_m]

In the UK most people live in a "safe seat" for one party or other and have no chance of influencing who represents them. This system exaggerates the power of the majority (or sometimes minority) view at the time, so the governing party can steamroller everybody until they annoy enough people to vote them out, when the other lot starts reversing most of it. The way they are preventing Parliament from having any "control" over Brexit is an extreme example. Not surprisingly our infrastructure and economy suffer from a lack of long-term planning and the more deprived regions get left out in the cold when a party decides it can get enough seats by pandering to the more prosperous areas. Until eventually so many people are fed up with their situation that they register a protest vote in the referendum - on a largely irrelevant issue but the only chance to make themselves heard.

The European Parliament is elected by multi-member constituencies, giving a much better chance of reflecting the diversity of the people they represent, and the process enforces concensus-building and makes extremism of the left or right less likely to take hold - unlike our own politics at the moment.

 

[Geezertronic]

I already do. But 37% of the electorate have decided that I won't in a year's time.

That 37% value makes me laugh when people quote it. Fact is that a lesser number voted Remain but that number never gets spoken about, and I presume the current Government was elected with significantly less. Whether 100% of the electorate voted or not (which will never happen), the vote on the night was 52% / 48% in favour of Leave no matter how much spin people put on it

 

[EM2]

That 37% value makes me laugh when people quote it.

Is it factually inaccurate then?

 

[Geezertronic]

Is it factually inaccurate then?

Of course it's not, but at the end of the day the Electorate has the opportunity to vote in every election and the result cannot be blamed on those who choose not to (or could not) vote

32% of the Electorate did not vote in the 2017 General Election, that does not change the colour on the door of number 10 but it could have. The 28% of the Electorate who did not vote in the Brexit Referendum could have made the difference swing either way

 

[AlterEgo]

You can’t have a democracy without a demos.

Ergo the EU isn’t really a democracy in any sense other than the fact it elects members.

Democracy is so much more than looking at a legislature and seeing if the members get voted in or out.

 

[edwin_m]

You can’t have a democracy without a demos.

Ergo the EU isn’t really a democracy in any sense other than the fact it elects members.

Democracy is so much more than looking at a legislature and seeing if the members get voted in or out.

That's all Greek to me.

 

[Bromley boy]

And who decides who gets selected for the Cabinet? You and me? No, it is entirely at the whim of the Prime Minister. A very similar scenario to that of your hated European Commission, but at least there they all have to be approved by the Parliament.

Still ignoring the point I see.

You’ll have to remind me, which current member of the U.K. cabinet is not an elected MP?!

Can you honestly not see a difference between an unelected originating legislative body and an elected one?!

Ergo the EU isn’t really a democracy in any sense other than the fact it elects members.

And it isn’t even a democracy in that sense.

The commissioners, who originate EU legislation, are unelected. MEPs get to vote on amendments, but they can’t table new legislation.

In practice MEPs have virtually no track record of blocking legislation either - contrast that with the U.K. parliament (both houses).

 

[Bromley boy]

Of course it's not, but at the end of the day the Electorate has the opportunity to vote in every election and the result cannot be blamed on those who choose not to (or could not) vote

32% of the Electorate did not vote in the 2017 General Election, that does not change the colour on the door of number 10 but it could have. The 28% of the Electorate who did not vote in the Brexit Referendum could have made the difference swing either way

Indeed.

When remainers start to impute a viewpoint onto people who didn’t even bother to turn out to vote, you know they must be desperate!

 

[EM2]

Still ignoring the point I see.

You’ll have to remind me, which current member of the U.K. cabinet is not an elected MP?!

Baroness Evans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Evans,_Baroness_Evans_of_Bowes_Park

But here's what I don't get. You are perfectly happy for the Prime Minister (who, let's not forget, first achieved that office without a single vote in her favour from the electorate) to select whoever she wishes to lead a Government department no matter how ill-qualified they may be, but not happy for that Government to make just *one* more selection to represent the UK in the European Commission? What, really, is the difference?

And is it democratic for the Head of Government to promise a large sum of money to another political party, just in order to win their support so that the Government's legislative programme can be forced through?
I doubt that would happen in the European Parliament.

 

[EM2]

When remainers start to impute a viewpoint onto people who didn’t even bother to turn out to vote, you know they must be desperate!

I've done no such thing. I have no idea whether those that did not vote would have voted Leave or Remain. If it makes you any happier, I'll change 37% to 17 million people. It still doesn't alter the fact that because of those votes, I will no longer be an EU citizen.

 

[EM2]

...that does not change the colour on the door of number 10 but it could have.

It's always been black, hasn't it?

 

[Geezertronic]

It still doesn't alter the fact that because of those votes, I will no longer be an EU citizen.

Out of interest, since when in your life did you first consider yourself an EU Citizen and was there anything behind your choice?

 

[EM2]

Out of interest, since when in your life did you first consider yourself an EU Citizen and was there anything behind your choice?

When I first learnt about the EU. It's nothing to do with considering it, I just am. It's a fact.

 

[AlterEgo]

Out of interest, since when in your life did you first consider yourself an EU Citizen and was there anything behind your choice?

We are all EU citizens but not all of us feel European. I guess that’s the distinction.

 

[Geezertronic]

To me, there is a distinction to be made between classing ones-self as European and classing ones-self as an EU Citizen. In that case, I could class myself as European but not as an EU Citizen.

 

[Senex]

Out of interest, since when in your life did you first consider yourself an EU Citizen and was there anything behind your choice?

lonmg

To me, there is a distinction to be made between classing ones-self as European and classing ones-self as an EU Citizen. In that case, I could class myself as European but not as an EU Citizen.

That's an interesting distinction. In answer to your earlier question, I'd say that I've considered myself an EU citizen since that status arose and was delighted to get it. To the second question, I agree that there is a distinction between the two things. I certainly see myself as European, largely on cultural and historical grounds. I feel myself part of a European heritage in music, painting, literature, scholarship, etc, and I feel that I share in our European history. I'd define myself as English and European, not British and never UK-ish—it's England and Europe (very much including Scotland and Ireland) that I belong to, not some political construct that still wants to see me as the subject of some out-dated monarchy living under what Lord Hailsham long ago described as an elective dictatorship. The EU Citizen status is a purely legal one coming from the membership of that union that unfortunately so many of my fellow-countrymen (i.e. the English, not the Scots who have more sense) want to throw away. I'm glad to have it, but it's certainly not the same as the much more emotional feeling of being European and belonging to and in Europe.

 

[Bromley boy]

Baroness Evans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Evans,_Baroness_Evans_of_Bowes_Park

But here's what I don't get. You are perfectly happy for the Prime Minister (who, let's not forget, first achieved that office without a single vote in her favour from the electorate) to select whoever she wishes to lead a Government department no matter how ill-qualified they may be, but not happy for that Government to make just *one* more selection to represent the UK in the European Commission? What, really, is the difference?

And is it democratic for the Head of Government to promise a large sum of money to another political party, just in order to win their support so that the Government's legislative programme can be forced through?
I doubt that would happen in the European Parliament.

Oh yes - the leader of the HoL. That particulr cabinet post had slipped my mind, but is rather the exception that proves the rule, since she is the only member of the current cabinet who isn’t an elected MP.

You’re still not addressing the wider point. You evidently consider the HoL to be undemocratic, even though like the European Commission it contains members appointed by the (then) government (apart from a diminishing number of hereditary peers who I agree are an undemocratic anomaly). Unlike European Commissioners however these unelected members don’t originate legislation.

At least be honest and acknowledge the EU’s shortcomings. You seem to be slavishly uncritical of the EU yet willing to pick apart the UK’s own democratic system.

I've done no such thing. I have no idea whether those that did not vote would have voted Leave or Remain. If it makes you any happier, I'll change 37% to 17 million people. It still doesn't alter the fact that because of those votes, I will no longer be an EU citizen

One of the saddest things about the EU debate is that it has highlighted how little patriotism and pride many brits apparently have in their own country and heritage. Many seem to believe we can’t survive on our own any longer, and need to remain a “member state” with Brussels pulling the strings.

The U.K. is a mature democracy with a proud, long history and is still one of the largest economies in the world. Yet you’d rather identify with a supra-national institution which has only existed since the ‘70s.

As a proud brexiter I would invite you to emigrate, continue to live in your precious EU and see how much it cares for you as a “citizen“.

Try Spain or Greece, for better weather (just don’t expect to get a job).

And preferably don’t come back.

 

[EM2]

You’re still not addressing the wider point. You evidently consider the HoL to be undemocratic, even though like the European Commission it contains members appointed by the (then) government (apart from a diminishing number of hereditary peers who I agree are an undemocratic anomaly). Unlike European Commissioners however these unelected members don’t originate legislation.

I do not consider the HoL to be undemocratic. Those unelected members can originate legislation - https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/bills/

A Bill is a proposal for a new law, or a proposal to change an existing law that is presented for debate before Parliament.
Bills are introduced in either the House of Commons or House of Lords for examination, discussion and amendment.

When both Houses have agreed on the content of a Bill it is then presented to the reigning monarch for approval (known as Royal Assent).
Once Royal Assent is given a Bill becomes an Act of Parliament and is law.
Different types of Bills can be introduced by:

• The government
• Individual MPs or Lords
• Private individuals or organisations

(my emphasis)

At least be honest and acknowledge the EU’s shortcomings. You seem to be slavishly uncritical of the EU yet willing to pick apart the UK’s own democratic system.

What shortcomings? What has the EU done that negatively affects my quality of life, that of my family, that of my friends? Nothing.
What have successive Governments done? Plenty.

One of the saddest things about the EU debate is that it has highlighted how little patriotism and pride many brits apparently have in their own country and heritage.

Pride has to be earned. Why should I be proud of where I happened to be born? Shouldn't that place make me want to be proud of it?

Many seem to believe we can’t survive on our own any longer, and need to remain a “member state” with Brussels pulling the strings.

The U.K. is a mature democracy with a proud, long history and is still one of the largest economies in the world. Yet you’d rather identify with a supra-national institution which has only existed since the ‘70s.

Having seen the parlous state the country was in before it joined the EEC, and how it has progressed since, I can't help but feel that a return to the early 1970s is not somewhere I'd like to be.

(Chart from the Financial Times showing growth in UK economy, before and during EU membership)

As a proud brexiter I would invite you to emigrate, continue to live in your precious EU and see how much it cares for you as a “citizen“.

Try Spain or Greece, for better weather (just don’t expect to get a job).

And preferably don’t come back.

No thanks. I'll be staying (for reasons too complicated to explain here) and I'll be suffering the hardships along with everyone else.

 

[Bromley boy]

I do not consider the HoL to be undemocratic. Those unelected members can originate legislation -

And by convention which house originates legislation?

What has the EU done that negatively affects my quality of life, that of my family, that of my friends? Nothing.

What has the EU done that positively effects your quality of life?

Pride has to be earned. Why should I be proud of where I happened to be born? Shouldn't that place make me want to be proud of it?

As I say if you dislike the U.K. and have no pride in where you’re born you are free to leave. The fact you haven’t done so reveals that you evidently don’t consider it too bad.

Having seen the parlous state the country was in before it joined the EEC, and how it has progressed since, I can't help but feel that a return to the early 1970s is not somewhere I'd like to be.

Why on earth should BREXIT mean a return to the 1970s? Ridiculous hyperbole.

Although the irony isn’t lost on me that many remainers want Corbyn for PM. They presumably want to relive a rabidly anti Semitic version of the 1970s.

No thanks. I'll be staying (for reasons too complicated to explain here) and I'll be suffering the hardships along with everyone else.

Well then stop complaining about it!

 

[Domh245]

One of the saddest things about the EU debate is that it has highlighted how little patriotism and pride many brits apparently have in their own country and heritage. Many seem to believe we can’t survive on our own any longer, and need to remain a “member state” with Brussels pulling the strings.

I'd consider myself patriotic, proud of my country and (mostly) proud of my heritage, but also something of a 'remoaner'. I don't doubt that we can survive outside of the EU, but needless to say that I don't think we will ever so as well outside the EU as we would have done if we had remained a member (unless the EU collapses perhaps) - it's just the nature of the world changing. In the old days, there was no such thing as the fast growing economies of the BRIC countries or the G-20. In the mid to long term, I fail to see how as the developing economies mature, we as a small country of 70-80million can compete with countries several times our size. The EU went someway to levelling that playing field by representing the (relatively) common interests of a large population making trade talks somewhat fairer - do you seriously think that we won't be absolutely steamrolled in talks with the likes of the US and China? We'll win some concessions that the government will try and play as major victories (eg allowing the export of haggis to the US) but that'll be a sticking plaster over all of the other stuff we've had to concede.

Patriotism is about love for your country and doing what you think is best for it, and not about looking to the past and singing 'Rule Britannia'. To accuse people of being unpatriotic because they don't have the same view as you or voted to remain is in some respects quite offensive

 

[EM2]

And by convention which house originates legislation?

Either of them.

What has the EU done that positively effects your quality of life?

Guaranteed a minimum amount of annual leave.
Introduced a Working Hours Directive.
Given me the right to live and work abroad in one of 27 other countries.
Eliminated mobile phone roaming charges.
Free (or reduced cost) healthcare if in an EU country.
Guaranteed compensation over travel delays.
Blacklisted dangerous airlines from operating in EU airspace.
Cheaper air travel.
Cleaner water and air.
Better health and safety regulation.
Increased consumer protection.
A legal right to have a bank account.
Better product safety standards.
At least third-party motor insurance cover in 27 countries under my own policy.

Just for starters...

But here is a question.
In twelve months, what will you, as an individual, be able to do that you can't do now?

As I say if you dislike the U.K. and have no pride in where you’re born you are free to leave. The fact you haven’t done so reveals that you evidently don’t consider it too bad.

Who said I dislike it? Who said I have no pride in it?

Why on earth should BREXIT mean a return to the 1970s? Ridiculous hyperbole.

And why should it herald sunlit uplands and a land flowing with milk and honey?

Although the irony isn’t lost on me that many remainers want Corbyn for PM. They presumably want to relive a rabidly anti Semitic version of the 1970s.

Maybe they do. I'm not one of them.

Well then stop complaining about it!

No. I live in a democracy, that means that I am allowed to make my feelings clear and protest. And I shall do so.

 

[trash80]

As I say if you dislike the U.K. and have no pride in where you’re born you are free to leave. The fact you haven’t done so reveals that you evidently don’t consider it too bad!

Leaving the country you live in to move to another isn't exactly like changing your brand of bog roll. Its a major step and change especially as you get older and have many others to consider.