Could changes be made to allow on board human ticket sales to end?

[ashkeba]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...o-cheat-the-system.194810/page-2#post-4298524

The system can be a bit of a minefield, though, and as we have seen in this section of the forum, there are many cases where someone has fallen foul of the rules due to making a fairly basic mistake. I recall one recent case where someone boarded at a station with no ticketing facilities, no reasonable opportunity to purchase en route, and alighted at another station without facilities and subsequently ended up in trouble.

There's no consistency across the network. Until I joined the forum, I was under the impression that it was perfectly okay to get on a train and pay the conductor. Indeed, I could probably make a local journey today and have the conductor sell me a ticket on board. I know now to make sure I use the TVM or visit the ticket office, but hitherto it was considered perfectly acceptable to buy on board. Not once have I been advised by a conductor that this isn't the correct behaviour, and there's no real incentive for them to do so if they're earning commission from the sale.

If I decided to have a holiday in, say, Northernland and boarded a train expecting the situation to be the same, I'd be in for a shock. Your average punter won't be versed in the finer details of the Conditions of Travel.

Does anywhere in the UK display bus-style "buy before you board" notices at train doors, or have bus/tram-style "tap in/out" readers in trains, or even full self service ticket machines on trains instead of at isolated stations exposed to weather and Vandals? Those would all reduce confusion and allow on board human sales to end.

 

[najaB]

Does anywhere in the UK display bus-style "buy before you board" notices at train doors

They are quite prominently displayed at most stations and seem to be ignored. No reason to assume that placement at the train door would be any different.

or have bus/tram-style "tap in/out" readers in trains

That only works where there are zonal/flat fares. And they would kill dwell times on busy services.

or even full self service ticket machines on trains

"I was in a hurry and couldn't get to the machine before the train left" is just replaced with "The train was too busy to get to the machine..."

 

[ashkeba]

They are quite prominently displayed at most stations and seem to be ignored. No reason to assume that placement at the train door would be any different.

That only works where there are zonal/flat fares. And they would kill dwell times on busy services.

Why does it require zonal fares? It knows where and when you tapped in and out so can charge the best fare. Why would a tap kill dwell times when it doesn't on buses? I accept the point about crowded trains.

I disagree about the current tickets-only notices. They don't even look like a railway notice and are often displayed sideways-facing on entrance corridors or platform ends where you will get complaints (at best!) from regular travellers if you stop to read the lengthy text and often after you passed the last ticket machine. Also I don't think there's any line across the floor like at DLR stations, is there?

 

[najaB]

Why does it require zonal fares? It knows where and when you tapped in and out so can charge the best fare.

And if you fail to tap in/out or it doesn't register?

Why would a tap kill dwell times when it doesn't on buses?

Because bus timetables are much more relaxed than train timetables and are predicated on the idea that people will queue and enter the bus single-file. Unlike trains where it's assumed that people will use all the doors without necessarily entering one by one. You're basically moving the queues that currently form at the ticket gates to the train door...

 

[Llanigraham]

Why does it require zonal fares? It knows where and when you tapped in and out so can charge the best fare. Why would a tap kill dwell times when it doesn't on buses? I accept the point about crowded trains.

How is "tap in/tap out" going to work on a journey from (say) Machynlleth to Euston? For a start there at least 4 different routes I can take!

 

[Mathew S]

Why does it require zonal fares? It knows where and when you tapped in and out so can charge the best fare.

The best fare according to who? For example, I make a daily commute from Wigan to Manchester, never do I buy a ticket between those two places.

 

[ashkeba]

How is "tap in/tap out" going to work on a journey from (say) Machynlleth to Euston? For a start there at least 4 different routes I can take!

Tap in and out on each train as you get on and off.

To answer an earlier question, you'd watch for a green light as you tap. Don't tap in and risk falling foul of a ticket inspector, same as not buying a ticket now. Don't tap out or don't watch for green, then pay the maximum to the end of the line or to the latest possible change point for your next tap in. It could be done in that aspect. The dwell time question may be more of a reason not to do it.

 

[ashkeba]

The best fare according to who? For example, I make a daily commute from Wigan to Manchester, never do I buy a ticket between those two places.

If you want to override the default, buy a ticket elsewhere.

 

[Llanigraham]

Tap in and out on each train as you get on and off.

To answer an earlier question, you'd watch for a green light as you tap. Don't tap in and risk falling foul of a ticket inspector, same as not buying a ticket now. Don't tap out or don't watch for green, then pay the maximum to the end of the line or to the latest possible change point for your next tap in. It could be done in that aspect. The dwell time question may be more of a reason not to do it.

I have a feeling you haven't thought this through.
How are you going to fit a reader to EVERY door of EVERY train in the UK?
How are a mass of people trying to get on at say Shrewsbury all going to tap in, in the dwell time, on a 2 car unit with only 4 doors without slowing station time down?
How are all these machines going to talk to each other and to a central unit?
How are you going to get agreement between all the different operators in using one uniform system?
How is it going to judge I've taken the correct route for my ticket, or at the right time?
How is it going to allow for delays?
How is this card going to be filled with money?

 

[najaB]

Tap in and out on each train as you get on and off

And delay minutes go through the roof...

 

[najaB]

How are a mass of people trying to get on at say Shrewsbury all going to tap in, in the dwell time, on a 2 car unit with only 4 doors without slowing station time down?

Not to mention the confusion that will ensue if one of the readers happens to be out of order!

 

[sprunt]

How is this card going to be filled with money?

While most of your objections have merit, this one is very odd. There are numerous such stored value smartcard systems already in operation. The location of the card reader wouldn't make any difference to that.

 

[Llanigraham]

While most of your objections have merit, this one is very odd. There are numerous such stored value smartcard systems already in operation. The location of the card reader wouldn't make any difference to that.

Why is it odd? There is no explanation as to how this "card" is going to be loaded with money.

I travel from Caersws to Euston, for which there are several different routes, all with different fares and different operators.
Is the expectation that I will know the relevant fare I require and load the card with that amount?
Or will I have to load the card with the maximum possible fare for the journey, with no account of the route or operator I take?
Or will it be like my Oyster Card where I load it with a sum of money that I decide upon?
Or will it have to be linked to my bank account so that it takes out a figure that I won't know about until I get a bank statement?
And how will I be able to claim the cost of my ticket back, if I am on expenses, since there is no "hard copy"?

You state there are numerous of these smartcard systems in operation; the only one I know is Oyster, and there are certainly none I know of around here.

What I do see is another speculative system that does nothing to help the passenger, potentially makes journeys slower, and makes their experience MORE complicated. I thought the aim was to make it LESS complicated?

 

[ashkeba]

I have a feeling you haven't thought this through.
How are you going to fit a reader to EVERY door of EVERY train in the UK?
How are a mass of people trying to get on at say Shrewsbury all going to tap in, in the dwell time, on a 2 car unit with only 4 doors without slowing station time down?
How are all these machines going to talk to each other and to a central unit?
How are you going to get agreement between all the different operators in using one uniform system?
How is it going to judge I've taken the correct route for my ticket, or at the right time?
How is it going to allow for delays?
How is this card going to be filled with money?

I have thought this through. You fit readers like any train hardware. Masses get on as now, some will have tapped at the station if it's a big one, others will tap as they board, others will tap within a couple of minutes of departure - it doesn't kill bus and tram dwells (yes, including multi-door-boarding buses like Belgrade) so I doubt it will train but as I suggested above it would need testing because UK train design might be so bad it doesn't work.

The other problems are not blockers. Chip card ticketing works fine on some railways. It is shameful that the UK does not seem competent to get one working at all and so many seem to fetishise wasting orange-edged cards and having to queue up at machines for far too long before you board and then so many arguments about whether you pushed the right buttons on the machine!

 

[yorkie]

... full self service ticket machines on trains ...

Would these machines offer the full range of fares including PRIV discounts, Rovers, Day Rangers, excess fares, promotional fares, all relevant types of GroupSave and other discounted fares?

Would they accept all payment methods including Rail Travel Vouchers?

Would they also be more efficient than the sort of machines some companies are getting now which require around 20 button pressed to buy a ticket?

They would never crash, go out if service or run out of paper etc?

 

[ashkeba]

Would these machines offer the full range of fares including PRIV discounts, Rovers, Day Rangers, excess fares, promotional fares, all relevant types of GroupSave and other discounted fares?

Would they accept all payment methods including Rail Travel Vouchers?

Do current machines?

Would they also be more efficient than the sort of machines some companies are getting now which require around 20 button pressed to buy a ticket?

They would never crash, go out if service or run out of paper etc?

Probably and be more likely to be repaired than the ones at small stations which get left broken for days or months.

 

[yorkie]

Do current machines?

Nope

Probably and be more likely to be repaired than the ones at small stations which get left broken for days or months.

How many would you install per train? How many seats would you need to take out per machine?

How would it work on crush loaded trains?

You say the machines would probably be better, but I assume you don't have a specific manufacturer, product or design spec in mind; it's just an idea that hasn't been researched, right?

 

[najaB]

Masses get on as now, some will have tapped at the station if it's a big one, others will tap as they board, others will tap within a couple of minutes of departure...

So we've replaced one simple rule - "buy before you board" - with "buy before you board, or maybe as you board, or actually after you board is just fine... Uhm, wait did you buy, I can't remember?"

it doesn't kill bus and tram dwells (yes, including multi-door-boarding buses like Belgrade) so I doubt it will train

It will. Take a look at some timetables.

 

[Belperpete]

How is the system going to know if I am making a single journey, or a return journey potentially up to a month later?
How will it cope with me making a direct "only via" route on the way out, but coming back on a more expensive "any permitted" route?
How will it cope with break-of-journey (potentially on both outward and return legs), perhaps with a break-of-journey of up to a month?
Or return journeys that are started late, or terminated early on one or both legs (which I do fairly frequently).

For example, it would need to recognise that say a Machynlleth to East Croydon journey not via Birmingham, Euston to Birmingham and Birmingham to Pwllheli journeys all made on separate days perhaps a month apart should all be charged as just one fare. And it should not get confused if I make other journeys to or from these stations during this time.

 

[Belperpete]

If you want to override the default, buy a ticket elsewhere.

If your system has replaced the ticket machines on the stations and guards selling tickets on the trains, where exactly is this "elsewhere" you are proposing that I go to buy a ticket? There are many destinations that you can't buy tickets for on-line. And my nearest station with a ticket office (that isn't even open all the times trains are running) is an hour and a half bus ride away!

 

[Belperpete]

Do current machines?

As Yorkie said: Nope. Which is why we needs guards on trains selling tickets, to cope with all the situations that a machine can't cope with.

 

[Marton]

How is the system going to know if I am making a single journey, or a return journey potentially up to a month later?
How will it cope with me making a direct "only via" route on the way out, but coming back on a more expensive "any permitted" route?
How will it cope with break-of-journey (potentially on both outward and return legs), perhaps with a break-of-journey of up to a month?
Or return journeys that are started late, or terminated early on one or both legs (which I do fairly frequently).

For example, it would need to recognise that say a Machynlleth to East Croydon journey not via Birmingham, Euston to Birmingham and Birmingham to Pwllheli journeys all made on separate days perhaps a month apart should all be charged as just one fare. And it should not get confused if I make other journeys to or from these stations during this time.

Well said. I frequently split tickets and use combinations of advance and open tickets with variable routes bought at different times.

I can only see this working with a fixed £/km system. Give the current variations in TOC fares that would undoubtedly lead to increases for the lower charging ones.

 

[yorkie]

As Yorkie said: Nope. Which is why we needs guards on trains selling tickets, to cope with all the situations that a machine can't cope with.

Not a Guard; ideally someone who is able to check tickets constantly as happens in Strathclyde for example ; friendly, visible staff walking up and down the train checking and selling tickets without getting involved in operational duties

My train to Manchester was delayed awaiting the opening of doors at several stations due to tickets being sold on arrival (yet many people would still ohave had to queue at Piccadilly!) while my train from there to York had no visible presence at all.

It's a good idea to staff stations where practicable and a lot more could be done to provide more, and better, ticket machines.

But right now the quality of ticket machines is often abysmal, the range of fares available on them is lacking and it takes many button pressed to buy tickets. Also ticket vending machines are not cheap!

The ostentatious ticket machines at rural stations like Ulleskelf and Church Fenton are a waste of money and resources.

I don't think you can eliminate on board human ticket sales. Is there scope to reduce them? Yes. But it's not as easy as some people think.

E-tickets are probably going to help, but I suspect many people will be suspicious of them at first and may need some convincing. But not everyone is going to be willing and/or able to use them.

If machines were installed on trains it will further reduce capacity; how do you tell people where to board the train to use them? On a long train you may need several of them. And you still need staff to check tickets.

 

[edwin_m]

French practice with trams (spread to countries that employ a French designer/consultant) is to have ticket validators on board which you are supposed to use on boarding, so it can be made to work at least with a simple-ish urban flat fare ticket system. Ticket purchase still requires a machine on the platform. But there are those who stand near the validator and only use it if they see an inspector approaching. Systems that need validation on alighting as well are more problematic, as unlike a platform validator if you momentarily forget you can't go back.

It seems to me that on those deeply rural routes where TVMs aren't worthwhile, the current conductor system is the best but would be better if the driver controlled the doors (or at the very least opened them). If there are too many passengers for the conductor to get through the train then TVMs are needed - along with a properly enforced penalty for failing to buy before boarding.

 

[yorkie]

French practice with trams (spread to countries that employ a French designer/consultant) is to have ticket validators on board which you are supposed to use on boarding, so it can be made to work at least with a simple-ish urban flat fare ticket system. Ticket purchase still requires a machine on the platform. But there are those who stand near the validator and only use it if they see an inspector approaching. Systems that need validation on alighting as well are more problematic, as unlike a platform validator if you momentarily forget you can't go back.

It seems to me that on those deeply rural routes where TVMs aren't worthwhile, the current conductor system is the best but would be better if the driver controlled the doors (or at the very least opened them). If there are too many passengers for the conductor to get through the train then TVMs are needed - along with a properly enforced penalty for failing to buy before boarding.

But many routes have a mixture of urban stations with ticket offices and TVMs, and also rural stations where TVMs aren't viable.

TVMs in Northern-land are almost unusable. If there is only one TVM and several dozen people arriving for the hourly service and it doesn't accept all payment methods and doesn't issue all fares and each person has to plan an itinerary, then effectively there is no "opportunity to buy"

 

[Bletchleyite]

But many routes have a mixture of urban stations with ticket offices and TVMs, and also rural stations where TVMs aren't viable.

Aren't they?

TVMs in Northern-land are almost unusable. If there is only one TVM and several dozen people arriving for the hourly service and it doesn't accept all payment methods and doesn't issue all fares and each person has to plan an itinerary, then effectively there is no "opportunity to buy"

That Northern can't implement rural TVMs properly doesn't make rural TVMs flawed as a concept. Take a look at the "rural metro" style system AKN near Hamburg for an example - rural frequencies and level crossings and diesel rather then electricity, but the rest of it is a textbook U-Bahn - the stations even look like U-Bahn stations. It's DOO, like the U-Bahn, with random inspections, again like the U-Bahn. It seems to work!

 

[ashkeba]

How is the system going to know if I am making a single journey, or a return journey potentially up to a month later?
How will it cope with me making a direct "only via" route on the way out, but coming back on a more expensive "any permitted" route?
How will it cope with break-of-journey (potentially on both outward and return legs), perhaps with a break-of-journey of up to a month?
Or return journeys that are started late, or terminated early on one or both legs (which I do fairly frequently).

Is stopping short allowed in the UK?

The return ticket doesn't seem difficult to me because the central billing computer can see you made a journey the other way previously and charge the difference between the single and a period return. It should also be able to spot that needs a route upgrade too. I have said that some of the rarer ticket uses would still need to be bought in advance and put on a smartcard instead of just tapping your payment card. But for 95% of passengers it would be much better than queuing at a machine or playing hunt the guard and hoping that you are not on a tickets-in-advance-only train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is stopping short allowed in the UK?

Yes, where Break of Journey is not barred.

Therefore yes it is on all Anytime tickets (except odd ones like SailRail) and most (Super) Off Peak (Day), at least on the return half.

To answer the overall question, though, it does kind of require single-fare pricing, which I'm pretty certain is now coming.

 

[ashkeba]

I don't think you can eliminate on board human ticket sales. Is there scope to reduce them? Yes. But it's not as easy as some people think.

I never said it was easy.

I think I also never said replace or eliminate other ticket sales and that is an invention of whoever titled this thread.

If machines were installed on trains it will further reduce capacity; how do you tell people where to board the train to use them? On a long train you may need several of them. And you still need staff to check tickets.

You tell people where the ticket machines are by a standard marking on the outside of the train. I do not understand why the UK rail regulator seems to have failed to require basic standardisation of external markings for train facilities. I guess ATOC or similar would do it if they prioritised passengers.

Yes, it would still need enough machines and enough staff but that is true of any service.

 

[najaB]

You tell people where the ticket machines are by a standard marking on the outside of the train. I do not understand why the UK rail regulator seems to have failed to require basic standardisation of external markings for train facilities. I guess ATOC or similar would do it if they prioritised passengers.

Yes, it would still need enough machines and enough staff but that is true of any service.

The whole thing strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. Urban commuter routes where this is likely to be workable (since the fares structure is very simple) likely already have TVMs and/or ticket offices capable of selling the tickets before boarding. And on rural routes where at-station ticket vending facilities are difficult to provide, on-board ticket sales are hardly an issue presently.

It seems to me that simply identifying some services as "pay trains" would achieve the same (or better) result at zero cost.